Tier 4 info

[Threepoint]

90% sure that's tier 4a, not tier 4 final. They have to stop building tier 4a engines 12/31/14 and have to have production switched to tier4 final 3/31/15.

Hmm, wonder if my NX4510 is interim or final. I'll check with the dealer out of curiosity when I next speak with him. I only know it's Tier 4. Bought it at the end of March 2014. If the emissions could get any lower, I'd be astonished. As with Eric's NX6010, no smoke ever. In fact, there's no diesel smell either. :shocked: Very, very faint exhaust smell when starting up in the barn or garage, but not one that I would have associated with a tractor.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

90% sure that's tier 4a, not tier 4 final. They have to stop building tier 4a engines 12/31/14 and have to have production switched to tier4 final 3/31/15.

You're wrong. The NX series is 4B (final) and is replacing the out-going DX series which is the interim tier 4a.

After shopping everybody this spring, I learned that Kioti has a better DPF cleaning strategy than everybody else because the operator is not forced to park it during a regeneration cycle or put into a limp mode during the process.

The issue is how long will DPF filters even be around and how long before somebody like Donaldson makes replacements and the price drops?

 

[wmonroe]

You're wrong. The NX series is 4B (final) and is replacing the out-going DX series which is the interim tier 4a. After shopping everybody this spring, I learned that Kioti has a better DPF cleaning strategy than everybody else because the operator is not forced to park it during a regeneration cycle or put into a limp mode during the process. The issue is how long will DPF filters even be around and how long before somebody like Donaldson makes replacements and the price drops?

Which brands need parked or go into limp mode? Just curious as I haven't heard of that.

 

[MHarryE]

Curious also to know what brand/model needs to have a parked regen. My Kubota can do a parked regen if I want to but it is recommended to be working hard during regen. If there is any power lost I can't notice it and in auto regen while working hard very little extra fuel is used to add additional heat to burn the soot out of the filter. Deere is similar as are Case and New Holland on their DPF equipped machines. Are there some Chinese or Indian tractors that require parked regen?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Curious also to know what brand/model needs to have a parked regen.

The DPF systems on these things are not made by the tractor company. I suspect you'll find they are all the same. They are denso systems (I think). None of them require a parked or derated regen unless the operator manages to plug the DPF beyond the point that the tractor can regen it during operation. For example... someone running the tractor at idle for hours on end without creating enough heat for a DPF burn, and ignoring the lights on the dash to raise the RPM's. 99% of these are set and forget.

 

[MHarryE]

The DPF systems on these things are not made by the tractor company. I suspect you'll find they are all the same. They are denso systems (I think). None of them require a parked or derated regen unless the operator manages to plug the DPF beyond the point that the tractor can regen it during operation. For example... someone running the tractor at idle for hours on end without creating enough heat for a DPF burn, and ignoring the lights on the dash to raise the RPM's. 99% of these are set and forget.

I counted 163 DPF suppliers worldwide with Donaldson providing the most most for North American production. I notice that if I do some light work like moving large round bales, then switch to high power work like chopping, my DPF plugged percentage will drop burning off some of that soot that accumulated running at low exhaust temperature load. It will, however, increase fastest if I am pulling hard - power meter at or near 100% all the time. Even though the exhaust temp is high, it is not high enough to burn off the soot generated by lugging.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Correct me where wrong, but when I shopped Kubota and Massey this last spring looking for a 60ish hp tractor, I was told that the Kubota and Massey had to be sidelined while regenerating. The Deere dealer did not know because the 4066R never shipped in time for me to look at.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I counted 163 DPF suppliers worldwide with Donaldson providing the most most for North American production. I notice that if I do some light work like moving large round bales, then switch to high power work like chopping, my DPF plugged percentage will drop burning off some of that soot that accumulated running at low exhaust temperature load. It will, however, increase fastest if I am pulling hard - power meter at or near 100% all the time. Even though the exhaust temp is high, it is not high enough to burn off the soot generated by lugging.

Donaldson is making the filters already? Sweet, I'll talk to my sister for a discount when the time comes.

Like what you described, I experienced my regeneration cycle using a rotary cutter at a high, set rpm, but low load, rather than when using my loader where the engine revs like a car under demand.

 

[Threepoint]

Donaldson is making the filters already? Sweet, I'll talk to my sister for a discount when the time comes.
[snip]

Great, Eric! We're all family here on TBN, right?

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Correct me where wrong, but when I shopped Kubota and Massey this last spring looking for a 60ish hp tractor, I was told that the Kubota and Massey had to be sidelined while regenerating. The Deere dealer did not know because the 4066R never shipped in time for me to look at.

No, that's not correct. I'm going to screw this up.. but from what I remember there are 5 stages. You don't have to do a parked regen unless you get the point that the operator has prevented the regen process and really plugged the DPF. Most people would never get to that point. I suspect your tractor is probably the same.

 

[PoorPlowboy]

And I like that chopping hay with the same model and year chopper, I chop 30% more hay per day with my 118 PTO HP Tier IV interim with DPF, DOC, HPCR and CEGR than my brother-in-law with his non-emissions controlled 145 PTO HP tractor, and use less fuel per chopper box. Unfortunately his grandkids want to ride with me because grandpa's tractor stinks.

For my education, could you please articulate how 118 Tier4 horsepower is able to do more work than 145 Tier3 horsepower?

 

[MHarryE]

24 speed power shift helps keep the tractor running at full power while the non-power shift transmission has to stay in a gear that matches the largest part of an uneven windrow. Also ability swap chopper boxes more quickly due to shuttle shifting. Another reason is the auto shift feature so I can run it hard and let the computer decide if it is time to shift down. Finally MFWD vs 2WD. Unless a field is rock hard it is surprising how much easier the combination tractor/chopper/chopper box goes through the field if the tractor is in 4wd. The numbers are the Nebraska Tractor Test results for each tractor - to my knowledge neither has been on a dyno. Not sure if the radials on the lesser horsepower tractor make any difference in this condition like they do in heavy pulling vs heavy PTO load.

 

[mo1]

I don't have the patience to research and understand all of that. I'm just glad I've got a Tier 3 tractor and don't have to worry about it. I'm old enough that I hope to never have to buy a new tractor with all the Tier 4 stuff on it.

I have a tractor where the manual states I am not supposed to use diesel with more than 0.5% by weight (5000 ppm) sulfur and the only thing between the exhaust manifold and the end of the exhaust stack is a muffler. I guess that's Tier 0?

And I like that chopping hay with the same model and year chopper, I chop 30% more hay per day with my 118 PTO HP Tier IV interim with DPF, DOC, HPCR and CEGR than my brother-in-law with his non-emissions controlled 145 PTO HP tractor, and use less fuel per chopper box. Unfortunately his grandkids want to ride with me because grandpa's tractor stinks.

I am strongly guessing your tractor is significantly different than his, as you admit later on in the thread (yours is MFWD and has more gears than his 2wd unit.) Yes, older tractors do have exhaust that smells like diesel exhaust but I'll be really interested to see how well your tractor runs when it has 3500 hours on it like mine does. I have a big hunch that everything in my exhaust system is 27 years old, I have a hunch yours will be nowhere near the same situation.

They have been around for a while just ask anyone with a Ford 6.0 or 6.4

2007 was the start of the strict EPA regs on on-road diesels and when ULSD was mandated. The 6.0s had a problem with their cooled EGR clogging and subsequently blowing off the cylinder head. The 6.4 had the pee-water injection system and soot filter which could be problematic, but Navistar fixed the EGR issues from the 6.0 in the 6.4. The 6.4 actually has a very good reputation in the diesel power community as the engine is able to tolerate 500+ hp worth of boost with few to no modifications beyond a chip. The 6.0 is largely viewed as garbage and (illegal) T444E/7.3 PSD swaps are often discussed.

I run mine at whatever rpm I feel is right for the task, loader work around 1800-2200, running my finish mower about 2200, brush hog 2200-2600 depending on how thick the brush, bailer gets run right at pto speed which is 2600. You're not going to hurt the engine by running it at the rated rpm, these tractor engine are designed to run at that speed continuously. Noise is the only reason I run mine at a lower speed, but if I'm in a hurry or just feel like hearing the engine I'll run it at pto speed even if I'm just driving it between jobs.

My little 26 engine HP tractor makes pretty little power under 1500 rpm and sounds like it's bogging if I do anything with it with fewer revs on the engine. Even raising the bucket at the engine's 1000 rpm idle makes the engine sound like it's bogging and the loader acts sluggish as well. Throttling up to around 2000 rpm makes everything work and sound much better. I do pretty well all work where the PTO isn't turning at 1800-2200 rpm and it works well. Anything connected to the PTO gets the engine revved to the full 2415 rpm PTO speed so the implement gets run at the proper speed and gets enough engine power. Finish mowers in particular are harder to power than you think (especially compared to rough-cut mowers) and also pretty sensitive to PTO drive speed. 3.5-4 PTO HP per foot is a pretty good idea of what you need to drive one. Rototillers are somewhat more demanding of PTO horsepower than finish mowers and you want to be going at as fast of an engine RPM as you can to make as much power as you can unless you have a lot more than 5 PTO hp per foot. Using my little unit is certainly different than using the 80-120 hp utility tractors we had when I was growing up. Anything above idle made plenty of power for loader work and dinking around and doing "light" tasks like running the same 7 foot rototiller my tractor really works at to run at full engine speed in the lowest creeper gear. We only ever ran those tractors over the 1700 rpm required to spin the PTO at full 540 rpm with the "economy" gear multiplier if we were doing baling or tillage with discs, chisel plows, and field cultivators that my little tractor likely couldn't even budge if it could actually hook up to or lift them. However the improvement in maneuverability and reduction in weight while still being able to perform the tasks I need to greatly outweighs the ability to lug along at no RPM which is why I got a little tractor instead of a larger one.