Comparison Tier IV Questions For Messicks

   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #81  
Majorwager, one thing to remember is engines are built for world market and Europeans have emissions control too. So if one was selling into say India and wanted to pump out some extra old tier engines that still qualified, and were cheaper to make, I think there would be a business case for that. For sure avoiding DEF models is an issue, look how many used tractors shout out NO DEF!

no reason for personal attacks here, some of you clearly don't get along...

As someone who was around in the early 70's buying first gen emissions cars, and saw the nightmares of engineering foisted on the public (ever see a first gen Honda emissions control diagram?), I think we've had it pretty good with tractors.

nothing like the smell of a little diesel fuel in the morning...
 
   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #82  
daugen,

A point made by another member is valid. As the progression of Emissions Ties was implemented, manufacturers w/ current engine inventory were allowed to insert those engines in new products as exempt or w/o penalty. This was inaccurately disputed. I too was around for the initial automotive emissions innovations, although with DOMESTICALLY produced vehicles.

I do not believe the EPA mandated those engines be designated for only foreign markets. The reference applies primarily to US diesel engine producers, International, later Navistar, Cummins, Detroit, Cat.. all producers of both on and off road engines.
 
   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #83  
Confused concerning a Messick's post. It was stated that DPF does not require EGR. Yet the Kubota brochure specifically adjoins EGR and DPF. Screenshots below?
 

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   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #84  
They are two different systems. What he is saying is that a manufacturer of diesel engines may be able to design a Tier 4 compliance by just using one of the technologies. Either EGR or DPF. Some require both. Mostly this is true on existing older engine designs where the manufacturer has decided to not spend a gazillion $$ to make a new motor. Such is the case as mentioned about Mahindra designing a new motor recently that does meet the specs with only EGR as it's single method. And Diesel particulates are the "smell" of diesel. Without that you won't even smell like a diesel. Ever sniff closely a new Dodge Ram with the EcoDiesel ? They are pretty clean burning and the exhaust smell especially at idle is pretty darn clean.

Steve
 
   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #85  
Steve,
Disagree, tier 4 final is not obtainable through EGR alone. DOC in conjunction w/ EGR is certifiable, or EPA compliant. It was said that Kubota uses DPF alone but Kubota asserts that both DPF and EGR are employed Together.

Interim tier 4 could be achieved using EGR alone as is the case w/ numerous models prior to 2015.
 
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   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #86  
   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #87  
What is your point? EGR alone does NOT meet tier 4 final standards. Mahindra confirms
 
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   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks
  • Thread Starter
#88  
Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years. As long as those engines were made to the tier specification for that specific year they were OK. Some overlap of those engines and years are a result.


With competition forcing manufacturers into just-in-time components delivery throughout the supplier chain it is difficult for me to believe: "Some manufacturers stock piled engines under the previous tier classifications and had those to use in tractors for several years." Stock piling finished goods inventory is what sinks businesses when unpredictable contractions in demand occur, such as 2008 - 2012. Engines are the most expensive of tractor major components.

Japanese manufacturers were the first to implement just-in-time manufacturing during the 1970s.

Simply not reality today, nor fifteen years ago.

All should spend their hard earned dollars as they wish.


Engine manufacturers ramp up production to make a lot of engines prior to new EPA regulations coming into effect...
I know folks that work in the industry...
A local Freightliner plant owned by Mercedes has employment fluctuations that correspond with EPA tier regulations that come into effect...
That is a fact...
Not nonsense spouted off by someone with a doctorate in keyboard horse manure...

I visited Iowa this week for the annual OLD THRESHERS REVIEW in Mount Pleasant. As Waterloo, Iowa is not too distant I made an appointment to take a two hour factory tour of Deere's Tractor Cab Assembly Operation, 3500 East Donald Street, Waterloo, Iowa 50703. The tour begins with a thirty minute history film, reviewing the history of John Deere and particularly manufacturing evolution. After the film the actual plant tour was ninety minutes with the plant in full assembly mode.

In both the film and on the floor Deere made it clear that not a single part is in the factory before a tractor order arrives from a dealer, nor do any parts remain after an assembled tractor departs. When dealer orders come in a computer initiates production of all constituent parts from nearby Deere facilities which then ship to the factory I toured in phased, sequential order for painting and assembly. Some welding is done and quite a bit of painting, but there is no molten steel, no forge and no press equipment. The guide emphasized that if so much as one washer is found on the assembly factory floor everything stops until the staff figure out where the part should have been put. This is part of multi-tier, computer monitored quality control. Tractors being assembled move on robot controlled wagons, which depart each assembly point only when the workers key in departure approval.

Deere has an separate, dedicated factory in Waterloo which produces Deere replacement parts for tractors in the field. This is called the SPOT factory, but I have forgotten what the acronym means. Parts produced for tractors in assembly never originate in the SPOT parts factory, nor do spare parts for operating tractors source from the factories producing assemblies and components for the new cab tractor assembly plant.

In the SPOT factory both metric and inch standard parts are produced. If an assembly robot in the cab assembly plant was supplied inch-standard fittings I expect a real mess would result.

Also interesting is Deere's GOLD KEY program, which allows customers to follow their cab tractor through every step of the assembly process at the factory I visited. The larger, four-track cab tractors, generally 400+ horsepower, can take nine hours to assemble in the plant.

Deer has nine factories in and around Waterloo, Iowa, employing 8,000 to 9,000 workers, most affiliated with the United Auto Workers. Deere has several other plants in Iowa, away from Waterloo.

In the afternoon of the same day I visited the Deere Museum in downtown Waterloo, on the bank of the Cedar River. The Deere museum is full of historic equipment made by Deere and Deere predecessor companies. Deere's Drivetrain Operations Plant is near the Deere Museum. I may book a drivetrain tour next year.

A most interesting day in Waterloo.
 
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   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #89  
Jeffy,
During your tour you were shown what Deere wanted you to see and you heard what Deere wanted you to hear. No bearing upon previous discussion specific to Engine production.
 
   / Tier IV Questions For Messicks #90  
Glad you quoted my post. Has nothing to do with my statement and does not refute fact of knowledge. Have a great day.
 

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