timing marks on deutz injection pump

[Soundguy]

We've got a water pump power unit that has a deutz engine and the mechanic things he has the inj pump timed correctly.. but wants a 2nd opinion. We can find the dot onthe inj pump drive gear.. we can't find any mark on the cam gear except for a faint line.. and thet is where we have it timed up to.. we also check compression stroke and it seems to look good. Unit starts.. idles ok.. but when you throttle it up it blows black smoke.

turbo has bene rebuilt.. cheked for fuel obstruction and even put a new lift pump.. rebuilt injector pump.. has new injectors..

Bout' the only thing we can think of is perhaps scored cyls' or bad rings = low compression... any other ideas??

Here are the #'s from the tag on the engine

BF6L913 6668169
135 99 B 6270
2300 0956/07



thanks

soundguy

 

[doxford jim]

Sounds like the engine is overfueling for some reason.
With new injectors that shouldn't happen. However, I have had new fuel injector needles stick and this has caused a steady flow of fuel instead of a spray. Might be worth checking each injector out for confirmation.
Lack of air into cylinders - any obstructions if airways reducing air flow?
Fuel pump out of adjustment?
Has a compression test been done on all cylinders?

Sorry can't be more help. Just some thoughts that might help, though they should be ovious.

Jim

 

[RobJ]

sounds like something still in the pump or air in the system.

I worked on these engines for 6 years, conducted service schools, yada yada. It has been a while, that was in the late 70's and early 80's

The 913 is the turbo version of the 912 series. The 912 came in 3,4,5,6 cylinders engines. The 5 cylinder were even pump in some box vans. All of these were air cooled of course, the L in the model number means Luf or something, german for Air. I think the F meant "mobile" type engine. Deutz made some VERY large engines. I recall the B meaning turbo.

I don't recall any marks on the pump gear. You may notice the slots on the pump gear. These engines were made for all apps and hp settings. The "factory" way to time these engines were to find absolute TDC (using a block under the #1 valve (it is a process, #1 is closest to the flywheel BTW). Then calculate the timing and mark the main pulley on the front of the crank. Then use a site glass(a service device) on the Bosch pump (primed with fuel), to observe the fuel movement. The factory also had a special pointing device to use to find TDC instead of the roll pin at the top of the crank gear pulley. Actually this process is simular to my Kubota timing. Except my Deutz site glass would not fit on my Kubota.

If you don't have all this when you pull the pump DO NOT turn the engine over and be careful to not let the gear fall. Then realign the stains on the pump flange to the gear slots. It does work in a pinch.

Then replace all the copper washers on the banjo bolts to ensure no air leaks. These pumps do not like any air.

Somewhere I might still have my handy dandy quick reference card for the timing specs. I'll check tomorrow.

 

[RobJ]

SoundGuy.

In this thread is a pic of my Deutz timing tool..

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/parts-repairs/94913-checking-timing-kubota-l2500.html

Rob

 

[Soundguy]

Sounds like the engine is overfueling for some reason.
With new injectors that shouldn't happen. However, I have had new fuel injector needles stick and this has caused a steady flow of fuel instead of a spray. Might be worth checking each injector out for confirmation.
Lack of air into cylinders - any obstructions if airways reducing air flow?
Fuel pump out of adjustment?
Has a compression test been done on all cylinders?

Sorry can't be more help. Just some thoughts that might help, though they should be ovious.

Jim

New injectors, and pump just rebuilt.. all from the same shop.. all bench and pop off tested... Was run open pipe just in case to check for air restriction.... still trying to figure this one out.

No comp test yet due to the funny adapters needed for the deutz.. but that is looking like the next step if nothing else pans out..

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Though not using your tool or a site glass.. our mechanic did use new copepr washers. did find TDC on the #1, and did look for fuel bubble, and the mark ont he pump gear did mate up with a ?hash? or some mark on the timeing gear.. so it looks like it is timed correctly.

Motor starts and runs fine at lower rpm.. just give it throttle and it goes to heck..

Soundguy

sounds like something still in the pump or air in the system.

I worked on these engines for 6 years, conducted service schools, yada yada. It has been a while, that was in the late 70's and early 80's

The 913 is the turbo version of the 912 series. The 912 came in 3,4,5,6 cylinders engines. The 5 cylinder were even pump in some box vans. All of these were air cooled of course, the L in the model number means Luf or something, german for Air. I think the F meant "mobile" type engine. Deutz made some VERY large engines. I recall the B meaning turbo.

I don't recall any marks on the pump gear. You may notice the slots on the pump gear. These engines were made for all apps and hp settings. The "factory" way to time these engines were to find absolute TDC (using a block under the #1 valve (it is a process, #1 is closest to the flywheel BTW). Then calculate the timing and mark the main pulley on the front of the crank. Then use a site glass(a service device) on the Bosch pump (primed with fuel), to observe the fuel movement. The factory also had a special pointing device to use to find TDC instead of the roll pin at the top of the crank gear pulley. Actually this process is simular to my Kubota timing. Except my Deutz site glass would not fit on my Kubota.

If you don't have all this when you pull the pump DO NOT turn the engine over and be careful to not let the gear fall. Then realign the stains on the pump flange to the gear slots. It does work in a pinch.

Then replace all the copper washers on the banjo bolts to ensure no air leaks. These pumps do not like any air.

Somewhere I might still have my handy dandy quick reference card for the timing specs. I'll check tomorrow.

 

[RobJ]

WEll I have had a pump or 2 botched by a shop and needed a redo. Triple check for air, sounds like that to.

FRom the sound of it your mechanic left the pump flange attached to the drive gear, so he just lined up the tapered shaft to that on the install. Match up the paint marks on the gear case and you should be close enough. I don't think timing is your problem.

Good Luck,
Rob

 

[CATMAN]

Soundguy, Your comment: It starts fine, but give it throttle and it goes to heck. My first thought is that the injection pump is 180 degrees out of time. This may only apply to 4 or 6 cylinder engines. I have seen that exact problem/complaint on CAT 6 cylinder engines. [I don't have any experience on Deutz.] If it is 180 degrees out of time the engine won't hardly have any power either. Question: Did the mechanic actually remove the valve cover and verify that the valves were loose on #1, and if it is a 4 or 6 cylinder engine, then the rear cylinder valves would have had tight lash (valves in the "overlap" state)?

 

[RobJ]

I've neer seen an engine run 180 out of time. And yes I have made that mistake and fixed that mistake a few times. 180 out usually all you get is white smoke, actually atomized fuel vapor.

 

[CATMAN]

I've seen 6 cylinder engines, with the fuel injection pump 180 degrees out of time, start and run, and the mechanic drove it to the chassis dyno and run it until it stuck a piston(this person is now in management). Yes, I do agreed that initial start-up should be white smoke until the water temp/cylinder temp gets warm enough. Also, even when "warmed up", there should be a haze out the exhaust pipe. I don't know how long Soundguy is running his engine or how warm the engine is when they try to rev it up. Heck, it could be a nozzle tip not seating properly and letting combustion gases aerate the fuel in the injection pump at higher rpms.

Soundguy: Has anyone taken a wrench and "cracked" the high pressure fuel lines (for each cylinder) while the engine is idling and seen white, foaming fuel come out. If so, it is air in the system and/or combustion gases flowing backwards thru the high pressure injection lines. Normally, when one "cracks" a high pressure line, you will see solid fuel squirting out. Remember, you only just crack the line a little and slowly WITH a wrench and KEEP your HANDS AWAY. Wear eye protection, too. I assume the mechanic would have tried this already, because it helps narrow the culprit/cause down to a couple of areas, if foaming is seen.​

Sounds like RobJ has experience with this brand of engine, so he would know more on its typical symptoms/causes.