Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting engine

[MHarryE]

I agree with Gary Fowler - the front axle limit stop does increase the stability. If comparing with an old tricycle front tractor, there is also the advantage of tire spread vs. the 2 fronts together. The 2 close spaced fronts tended to dig in which also hurt stability. Front spacers will increase stability but most fronts do not have a super large bearing spread and front spacers could create a front bearing life problem. On the tricycle front stability issue - back in the days it was not uncommon to hear of a friend/neighbor/relative dumping his tractor. Most cases involved pulling the tractor back upright because the rollovers often were on fairly level ground. My closest neighbor, however, ended up living his retirement as a paraplegic because he was on a side slope when his Farmall H rolled breaking his back and pinning him underneath. My father was upset when I bought this place from him and quickly replaced his old H with my first Kubota CUT, ROPS equipped. As for the rollovers - whenever I helped right a tipped tractor it was turn the engine over 2 revolutions or more with the hand crank before using the starter but I never had one that was locked. They did smoke a lot for a bit after starting.

 

[wawajake]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

Mine are Broteks and I was very impressed and they also make installing the wheels easier because now you will have studs to hang the wheel on instead of trying to line up holes to insert bolts.
I do not mow so no interference issues , also helped give more room for chains.

As for dog he died a year ago, a good one though and replaced since by a mischievious Aussie Shepherd we love.

 

[panchohughes]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

If you have a MMM, be aware that the wheels will interfere if you have the 54" deck. You can install them and have no issues with the 60" deck, but only to a certain width of spacers (I think 2", but can't remember for sure). Unfortunately, I have the 54" deck and can't use spacers.

I am not sure I understand the issue. I have a 60" mid-mower. Is the issue due to tires being too close to the deck rollers at the rear corners of the deck or something?

 

[RaydaKub]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

Some mornings ya just wake up cranky. That and too little sleep

Just about every tractor I've driven has different dimensions and weights from the previous one, so there are no absolute measurements, thus no absolute answers. The article said the CG was 10 inches up and 15 inches forward from the axle if I recall. Maybe on one tractor that is true, I doubt that is true for my BX (too big) and for some of the new giant MFWD tractors, that is probably too small. Gary had mentioned his front end only pivoted 2 or 3 inches. My question is, measured where? At the wheel? That sounds like a BX sized tractor to me (but that's how this thread started so that's fair). I know I've seen 75-100 hp tractors with way more pivot than that. I don't think that inches is as important as the stop angle. While I know I said it offers no additional stability (poorly worded on my part), I recognize there is certainly *some* advantage before a roll over. My point was that if you have already tilted far enough to hit the stops, you probably are already in trouble (or at least you certainly feel like you're in trouble) with 1 wheel in the air. There is some margin there where the front end will keep you from going over. And yes, making the front end wider could prevent it completely (picture a 20 foot wide front end). Realistically though, we're talking about adding an inch or 3. Thus there will be some added benefit preventing the complete roll-over. But up to the point of hitting the stop, there will be no additional protection (force to counter the roll) with or without the spacers and from the driver's seat it will feel just as tippy. Logically, you know you have added some safety margin, but can your brain convince your butt? :laughing:

Hopefully, I worded it better this afternoon than I did this morning.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

3 point ballast boxes shift the cg rear ward and help transfer weight off the front wheels but most of the time it wont lower the cg height significantly in fact on smaller tractors it provably certainly raises it.

I'm skeptical, unless you're riding with the 3ph raised much higher than necessary. As long as the CG of the ballast box is level with or below the CG of the tractor, it wouldn't raise the CG of the tractor-ballast-box system, right? So how tall are most ballast boxes, and how high is the CG of most tractors?

 

[IndyIan]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I'm skeptical, unless you're riding with the 3ph raised much higher than necessary. As long as the CG of the ballast box is level with or below the CG of the tractor, it wouldn't raise the CG of the tractor-ballast-box system, right? So how tall are most ballast boxes, and how high is the CG of most tractors?

I think the main advantage of 3ph ballast is to move the centre of gravity back towards the rear axle. This helps side stability as well because the rear axle doesn't pivot. So even if you have some strange tall ballast that does raise the CG a couple inches, moving weight from the front axle to the rear axle makes the tractor more stable.

 

[Mace Canute]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

The premise that the lines define the tractors "stability baseline" is incorrect. It would hold true ONLY if you had a solid mounted front axle with absolutely no provision for it to pivot. To my knowledge, no tractor is built that way.

 

[xring100]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I'm skeptical, unless you're riding with the 3ph raised much higher than necessary. As long as the CG of the ballast box is level with or below the CG of the tractor, it wouldn't raise the CG of the tractor-ballast-box system, right? So how tall are most ballast boxes, and how high is the CG of most tractors?

according to the PDF on stability that vtsnowedin posted it can be approximated around 10" above the center line of the rear axle. These pictures show where i normally carry my ballast box aka my carry all if it has weight in it the cg is definitely higher than 10" above the center line of the rear axle. The Cg of most tractors will be several inches below the drivers rear end assuming the loader is down low and 3 pt implements are not really high in the air. I don't want to drive over something like a rock or tree stump and rip my ballast box off my tractor same can be said for backing up.
Sub compact owners are more worse off than larger tractors i would be willing to be that most of the time with their ballast boxes they have the 3pt about as high as it will go to get descent ground clearance and departure angles so they don't get stuck on stuff when changing grade. SCUTS are going to be more likely to tip than larger tractors as a bx is 44" wide larger utility tractors are nearly double that in width. Larger tractors can carry the FEL 3 feet off the ground with a load and lower the CG of the tractor. SCUTS having the loader 3ft off the ground with load likely raises the CG as my buddies Compact B2400's hood is not as tall as my front tires which are about 3feet tall. .

 

[xring100]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

The premise that the lines define the tractors "stability baseline" is incorrect. It would hold true ONLY if you had a solid mounted front axle with absolutely no provision for it to pivot. To my knowledge, no tractor is built that way.

Those lines are perfectly fine once the axle hits the stop its a solid linkage and the axle pushed back on the frame trying to keep it from tipping. Prior to the axle hitting the stop your assumption is correct front axle only keeps the front end off the ground. Assuming the load transfers slowly onto the axle stop the tractor won't go over. if the load transfers with speed, due to momentum your probably going over. Remembers car and trucks are not rigid either granted they don't pivot exactly like a tractor axle, but trucks with leaf springs up front have similar motion. A jeep with no sway bar (rock Crawler) can have the body lean way over and assuming the cg stays within side the stability lines he doesn't flip make his truck really narrow and he will flip every time.

 

[willi67]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

If you have a MMM, be aware that the wheels will interfere if you have the 54" deck. You can install them and have no issues with the 60" deck, but only to a certain width of spacers (I think 2", but can't remember for sure). Unfortunately, I have the 54" deck and can't use spacers.

Howdy, you are correct about 2" spacers with the 60" deck, but you can also have spacers with a 54" deck .. 2" LHS 1.5" RHS check page 4 of this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/170323-bro-tek-wheel-spacers-work.html

As for tipping a tractor, each time I have done it has sucked engine oil through the rocker cover breather pipe, through the air filter and into the cylinders, ran away the first time but stalled the second, no harm done on each occasion. Took out the injectors and exhaust manifold and turned the motor over as described to blow out the oil. This was a hassle so now use a BX with spacers for mowing.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

The premise that the lines define the tractors "stability baseline" is incorrect. It would hold true ONLY if you had a solid mounted front axle with absolutely no provision for it to pivot. To my knowledge, no tractor is built that way.

I hesitate to try this as it is like arguing evolution but...
Do you really think a tractor can tip over without the low side front wheel coming to the limit of the front pivot play and at that point in time the upward resistance of the ground on that wheel is not applied as a reaction force upward times the distance that wheel is set out from the center of rotation?
Also do you really think that paper from that source got published without somebody really good at physics and statics checking the math?
People love their old tricycle front tractors for the nostalgia, and they were a great leap forward from what people were using before them, but stability was never their strong suit and we should all be glad they don't make them that way any more.

 

[xring100]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I hesitate to try this as it is like arguing evolution but...
Do you really think a tractor can tip over without the low side front wheel coming to the limit of the front pivot play and at that point in time the upward resistance of the ground on that wheel is not applied as a reaction force upward times the distance that wheel is set out from the center of rotation?
Also do you really think that paper from that source got published without somebody really good at physics and statics checking the math?
People love their old tricycle front tractors for the nostalgia, and they were a great leap forward from what people were using before them, but stability was never their strong suit and we should all be glad they don't make them that way any more.

Well said this document looks like its the equivalent of a published SAE paper, where you have multiple Engineers writing / checking the work. Most with masters degrees some PHD's all with extensive backgrounds in applied physics, statics/dynamics, kinematics etc. The fundamentals explained in this document look to be very solid. Coming from a guy who holds a B.S. in Mechanical Engineering From GMI/Kettering University i would not bet against the publishing.

 

[azbinder]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

A couple of years ago, a local rental yard sent out a B26TLB and their customer rolled it. Wrapped a chain around the BH control tower and bucket cylinder linkage. Bent the crap out of the tower. Then they tried to start it. When it was brought into us, it had one **** of a miss. #2 cylinder was low on compression. Told rental yard that it had a bent rod. Sure enough, bent rod. Didn't hurt anything else. It could have been a LOT worse.

 

[GolfAddict]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I am not sure I understand the issue. I have a 60" mid-mower. Is the issue due to tires being too close to the deck rollers at the rear corners of the deck or something?

Yes, that is the issue. I understand you can use spacers with the 60" because you have the clearance (that you described) to move the rear wheels out without hitting those deck rollers.

With the 54" deck, those rollers are quite close on each side to the rear wheels. Looking at my set up, and having read threads here, etc., I understood you couldn't add spacers with a 54" deck because there just isn't room. However, I'm going to do a little more reading and actual measuring now based on willi67's info below...

Howdy, you are correct about 2" spacers with the 60" deck, but you can also have spacers with a 54" deck .. 2" LHS 1.5" RHS check page 4 of this thread http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/170323-bro-tek-wheel-spacers-work.html

 

[radioman]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

forget the spacers and 3pt pivot stuff. where is OP? did he pull glow plugs out yet? was he able to turn engine over by hand to see if it rotate ok?

 

[puckgrinder85]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

For you guys that roll your tractors. No need to pull glow plugs out right away, rotate the engine over with a rachet if you can get to the crankshaft. If you have some major resistance other than normal compression then you know you have to procede further or wait untill the oil can drain back through the rings.

 

[RaydaKub]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I hesitate to try this as it is like arguing evolution but...
Do you really think a tractor can tip over without the low side front wheel coming to the limit of the front pivot play and at that point in time the upward resistance of the ground on that wheel is not applied as a reaction force upward times the distance that wheel is set out from the center of rotation?
Also do you really think that paper from that source got published without somebody really good at physics and statics checking the math?
People love their old tricycle front tractors for the nostalgia, and they were a great leap forward from what people were using before them, but stability was never their strong suit and we should all be glad they don't make them that way any more.

I'll try one last time. Let's say your front axle pivots by 10 degrees either direction (no idea what they really do). You are on a side hill of 25 degrees. Assuming a plane for a hillside (perfectly flat, no rocks or holes). At the time you are driving along, your tractor is going to feel like the left diagram because of the pivot. Sitting in the seat, you won't feel the front axle's contribution to stability until the rear wheel tips an additional 10 degrees, meaning the seat is tilted at 35 degrees (still on that 25 degree hill). When your rear wheel is 10 degrees in the air, suddenly you have changed diagrams to the right one. Ultimately, there is an additional margin of safety. But you had to tilt 10 degrees more than the hillside to find it. Adding spacers to the front axle won't change that additional 10 degree tilt the body of the tractor must go through before the front axle's contribution is relevant. In the mean time, the entire footprint of the tractor with respect to gravity (straight down) has gotten more narrow.

Safer? Absolutely, no question. Pucker factor? Just about dead even.

 

[GolfAddict]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I agree with Ray. The trapezoid picture of a wide front tractor is a little deceptive. A wide front and narrow front tractor have the same exact triangle shape when they are just sitting there.

With a narrow front tractor, the point of the triangle is at the centered front tires. With a wide front tractor, the point of the triangle is at the front axle pivot. Even when the tractor is on a side hill, the wide front tractor still has the same triangle shape. It is important, but maybe difficult, to realize that it isn't until you have actually started tipping the tractor over, all the way to the point of front axle hitting the pivot stop (upper rear wheel is off the ground now), that a wide front tractor then becomes the trapezoid shape.

And actually, it really isn't a trapezoid shape even then. It is now a new triangle with the two front wheels and the low side rear wheel. You are tipped over at this point, just not rolled on over.

This can/should be "safer" as long as you don't have enough momentum built up to go on over. With a narrow front at this same tipping point, it became a straight line (front wheel, lower rear wheel) rather than a triangle and you're very likely screwed...

I think it's very easy to think of a wide front tractor having this trapezoid shape (like other four wheeled vehicles) and it really doesn't.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

I'll try one last time. Let's say your front axle pivots by 10 degrees either direction (no idea what they really do). You are on a side hill of 25 degrees. Assuming a plane for a hillside (perfectly flat, no rocks or holes). At the time you are driving along, your tractor is going to feel like the left diagram because of the pivot. Sitting in the seat, you won't feel the front axle's contribution to stability until the rear wheel tips an additional 10 degrees, meaning the seat is tilted at 35 degrees (still on that 25 degree hill). When your rear wheel is 10 degrees in the air, suddenly you have changed diagrams to the right one. Ultimately, there is an additional margin of safety. But you had to tilt 10 degrees more than the hillside to find it. Adding spacers to the front axle won't change that additional 10 degree tilt the body of the tractor must go through before the front axle's contribution is relevant. In the mean time, the entire footprint of the tractor with respect to gravity (straight down) has gotten more narrow.

Safer? Absolutely, no question. Pucker factor? Just about dead even.

What you said is somewhat true but not totally correct and 10 degrees seems about right for the amount of tilt in the front axle. (By the way the 2-3" was clearance measured at the junction of tractor frame and axle) The thing is that if you are running on a 25 degree slope, your pucker factor is already way past maximum. Dropping the front wheel into a hole is not going to change the seat angle (remember the swivel front axle of 10 degrees), it wont change till the rear wheel hits the hole and if it truly does throw the angle to 35 degree tilt, with any small amount of forward momentum, it will likely be enough to roll the tractor. It doesnt take much of a bump/dip on the rear when you have a slope that large to kick the CG with enough force to roll it.

The thing is rather than argue on the merits or does the wide front help, concentrate on operating the tractors in a safe condition to start with. I see highway mowers side mowing on slopes that I wouldnt want to be on going up and down but apparently they are safe to mow as I havent seen a mower on its back. DO I WANT THEIR JOB, HECK NO.
As for how far will the tractor tilt before going over: ever see that video that was posted on TBN of the tractor hitting the ramp and turning up on 2 wheels and driving thru some obstacle course, that looks like 45 degrees to me and perfectly in balance and way more than I would ever imagine getting into.

 

[RaydaKub]

Re: Tipped my BX25 FEL & BH on its side - what precautions to take before starting en

Basically, I got into this discussion because I didn't want the OP to get a false sense of security by adding spacers and thinking all was going to be well.

I measured my hillside last summer with my BX. I was pretty high on my pucker scale and stopped to measure it with my table saw protractor and a level. Somewhere around 22 degrees. But it isn't quite so bad without the FEL. So I just used 25 degrees in my previous post.

GolfAddict, ==> And actually, it really isn't a trapezoid shape even then. It is now a new triangle with the two front wheels and the low side rear wheel. You are tipped over at this point, just not rolled on over. <== That's the part I could envision and disagreed with, but couldn't quite verbalize it. Thanks.