tipping

[Bird]

I am outraged that the manufactures do not provide clear, precise information on the point of no return. It is very simple to calculate the center of gravity and for various configurations (FEL down, FEL up with the max. permissible load, etc., etc.) the slope at which roll over will take place. I can not believe the manufacturers are not required to provide this. I am a single engine plane pilot and perhaps that is my perspective; you ALWAYS know where your center of gravity is before you take off with a bunch of fat passengers (smile) to ensure you are with a prescibed set of limits. I am also an engineer so maybe I am overly **** about this topic....But I feel strongly that I am correct! My 2 cents.

I think I can understand your feelings about it, but, personally, I'd have to disagree. And yes, I'm familiar with the aircraft perspective, also, but there's some big differences between airplanes and tractors. I'd never be able to cover all of them, but
1) you had to get a license to legally operate that airplane, but anyone can climb on a tractor,
2) there are a limited number of "accessories" or customization you can add to that airplane, and each has probably been evaluated by the FAA, instructions provided, etc. Who knows what we might come up with to add onto our tractors? Homemade or store bought canopies, lights, something to carry the chain saw, toolboxes, and on and on. And that doesn't even include the front end loader and wide variety of implements you may or may not have on the 3-point.
3) you load that airplane on the ground; once underway and in the air, you don't add any weight, and you don't drastically redistribute that weight (yeah, I know you can redistribute it to some degree). The weight and the distribution on the tractor may change many times, especially if you are using a front end loader, raising and lowering it, picking up half a bucket full one time and full bucket full the next time; light material, then heavy material.
4) so you hit a little bump in that airplane or bank a little too steeply. You probably are high enough to have a chance to recover. When that tractor starts over, recovery can happen, but it's not too likely.
5) if the manufacturer of the tractor says it can handle a certain maximum side to side tilt; say 20 degrees, we know that some operators will try to use it on a 20 degree slope without considering what implements or added accessories the tractor has on it, and if they happen to have one rear wheel run over a small stone or stick, or fall into a tiny dip in the ground, they'll sue the manufacturer if they survive the roll over.
6) how do the prices compare on your airplane vs. your tractor? More detailed information is nice, but it also costs money.
7) how much training, and at what cost, did it take to get a pilot's license? Would you want to go through the same thing to get a tractor operator's license?

Yep, I wish my car, pickup, and tractors had all the gauges that many airplanes have. I like having that information. But I'll also be the first to admit it just isn't practical and I really don't want the price of the vehicles to increase enough to pay for it.

 

[johnk]

I don't think the mfg's can give people precise rollover point because of too many variables. Then a lawsuit when they are wrong. They just tell you be careful and wear your seatbelt....It's all about accountability.......

 

[Stargazer]

Well the only tipping I hope to do is with the bottle of Mogan David wine that I put in the snow bank to get good and cold while doing the drive/street 3 blocks of sidewalks for neighbors and the trac is back home parked/refueled ready for next storm (tarping waits for next day). Yes I have a tilt meter also.

Pat R

 

[Bird]

the only tipping I hope to do is with the bottle of Mogan David wine

That wouldn't be Mad Dog 20/20 would it?

 

[gone2dawgs]

I think I can understand your feelings about it, but, personally, I'd have to disagree. And yes, I'm familiar with the aircraft perspective, also, but there's some big differences between airplanes and tractors. I'd never be able to cover all of them, but
1) you had to get a license to legally operate that airplane, but anyone can climb on a tractor,
2) there are a limited number of "accessories" or customization you can add to that airplane, and each has probably been evaluated by the FAA, instructions provided, etc. Who knows what we might come up with to add onto our tractors? Homemade or store bought canopies, lights, something to carry the chain saw, toolboxes, and on and on. And that doesn't even include the front end loader and wide variety of implements you may or may not have on the 3-point.
3) you load that airplane on the ground; once underway and in the air, you don't add any weight, and you don't drastically redistribute that weight (yeah, I know you can redistribute it to some degree). The weight and the distribution on the tractor may change many times, especially if you are using a front end loader, raising and lowering it, picking up half a bucket full one time and full bucket full the next time; light material, then heavy material.
4) so you hit a little bump in that airplane or bank a little too steeply. You probably are high enough to have a chance to recover. When that tractor starts over, recovery can happen, but it's not too likely.
5) if the manufacturer of the tractor says it can handle a certain maximum side to side tilt; say 20 degrees, we know that some operators will try to use it on a 20 degree slope without considering what implements or added accessories the tractor has on it, and if they happen to have one rear wheel run over a small stone or stick, or fall into a tiny dip in the ground, they'll sue the manufacturer if they survive the roll over.
6) how do the prices compare on your airplane vs. your tractor? More detailed information is nice, but it also costs money.
7) how much training, and at what cost, did it take to get a pilot's license? Would you want to go through the same thing to get a tractor operator's license?

Yep, I wish my car, pickup, and tractors had all the gauges that many airplanes have. I like having that information. But I'll also be the first to admit it just isn't practical and I really don't want the price of the vehicles to increase enough to pay for it.

Bird,

I can not argue with any of the 7 points you mentioned. You are correct on each and every item you discussed. I guess it all comes down to money. As you pointed out, we sure do not want to price liability into tractors since nobody could afford one. Thank you for replying to my emotionally charged rantings. BUT...I still feel there is something that can be done to improve tractor safety with respect to roll overs. I am new to tractor and airplane operations (8 hours on my brand new L3130, 210 hours in a Cessna 172). Considering roll overs are the number one killer of farmers, I am not content to accept a continuation of the past. I just think there is always a better idea somewhere, concerning this utmost topic. But I do not know what it is.

Sincerely,

gone2dawgs

 

[Sully2]

I am also worried about tipping. I did something that perhaps was not the brightest idea. I went stright up the steepest slope I have very slow, in 4WD, with the FEL low to the ground and a Box Blade (about 400 lbs) on the 3 point hitch (with my ROPS and seat belt of course). I slowed the tractor down at the most sloped point and got the rear wheel spinning. It was my test to see the point at which I would loose traction. I would LIKE TO THINK I would loose traction on a slope before the front would rotate up and over.

I also have my rear wheel filled, I hope you have done the same. As far as going across a slope, it looks like 45 degrees is about the point of tip. This is based on my glancing and judging where the center to gravity is and the midpoint of my wheels. But you also have to have margin for dips, pholes, etc., By the way, I also have my rear wheels entended the max., about 10 inched beyond normal.

BE CAREFUL!!!

If you have the grand sum of 8 hrs on that rig...and your already side traversing 45 deg slopes to see if it tips or not...we'll be reading about you in the obit's some day!

As far as straight up and down a 45 deg slope..I guess thats why God put fear into me...Im not doing it..period! I have NO TASK...for NO REASON..that I need to directly assault 45 deg slopes

 

[Bird]

I am not content to accept a continuation of the past. I just think there is always a better idea somewhere, concerning this utmost topic. But I do not know what it is.

I agree. Just as aircraft and automobile safety has evolved, so has tractor safety. The tricycle front end may be entirely a thing of the past, although it used to be common. I guess ROPS are now standard equipment when they were virtually unheard of just a few years ago. So it's gotten better, and I'm confident that someone will come up with additional improvements to safety, but just as you said, I do not know what it will be. Discussing the matter on forums such as TBN, though, may help lead someone to better ideas.

 

[cp1969]

I would LIKE TO THINK I would loose traction on a slope before the front would rotate up and over.

Not true. The front end is amazingly easy to lift. When facing uphill, all the weight transfer is going to the rear wheels. It's a very dangerous, unstable situation that can bite you in an instant. One of my high school friends flipped a Super C Farmall over backwards and was pinned under it for about eight hours. He eventually died from his injuries but not until he had undergone double amputations for gangrene(sp?). He was pulling a hay wagon, crossing a creek and that tractor/wagon combination had made that crossing many times before so it is unknown to anybody what caused it to go over that day.

Bird's advice about backing up steep grades is one you don't want to have to learn for yourself.

 

[Stargazer]

Actually it is a black raspberry that I like but not as good as some "fortified" wine a since passed away friend used to make (cherry&apple& hospital grade alochol) Warms you right up after the coverall/boots are put away.

Pat R

 

[Bird]

Actually it is a black raspberry that I like but not as good as some "fortified" wine a since passed away friend used to make (cherry&apple& hospital grade alochol) Warms you right up after the coverall/boots are put away.

Pat R

Pat, I just had to ask. I don't guess I've ever tasted any Mogan David wines. Forty to forty-five years ago, and for how long before that I don't know, Thunderbird, a white wine, was the wine of choice of the homeless winos in Dallas. I tried some Thunderbird one time; I think kerosene might taste better. But then 25 or 30 years ago, MD 20/20 replaced Thunderbird as the wine of choice of the winos. I'm not sure why, although I understand MD 20/20 may taste better and cost about the same. I thought both of them were 20% alcohol, although the links show them to be a little less.