Tired Ford 3000 engine......

[Kaliburz]

Just got an old Ford 3000 diesel tractor with a Selec-O-Speed tranny. It's late 60's vintage (either 67, 68, maybe 69). I've been told that they are 48HP (some say 50HP) engine and 38HP PTO. So they're not quite a 40HP PTO rated tractor (as stock/new).

Any how, it has a LOT of hours (just guessing, based on how it is used, over 10K). I am unsure if it has ever had an engine rebuild (maybe rings at one point, but unsure). The original owner is passed away and the owners I bought it from say no engine work has been done.

My limited experiance with it only brings up more questions. I tried to get it started early one morning (about 7:30-8am) after a cold night, upper 30's, lower 40's (parked in the open). Any how, no luck. Kept cranking and cranking. Just puffed out white smoke and one could smell the diesel in the smoke. Just wouldn't fire up. But, when I tried at 1pm (temp was about high 50's to low/mid 60's), she fired right up. During idel, I don't notice any white smoke.

Pending the results of a compression test, I've been thinking of opening up the engine. One mechanic I talked to (New Holland) said that machining costs are quite high now. And it would prob. be more economical to get a remanufactured engine. I'm sure this current engine is rebuildable, but I'd like more power.

I know the Ford 4000 is rated 55HP (engine) and 46HP (PTO). I'm a novice when it comes to Fords. For some reason, I don't think the original 38HP PTO is enough for my application. I was thinking of swapping in a rebuilt 4000 engine or even a newer diesel. But, I don't know what HP ratings are availale in 3 cylinder diesels that will fit this Ford.

Any comments, suggestions.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Stick with O.E.M. in one form or another. Either rebuild what you have or get reman motor from NH. If you start swapping motors, assuming that's even possible, you'll create a misfit. Bigger motor would need bigger cooling system most likely. Many more changes to be made.

You mention Selecto-Speed tranny. That's a somewhat delicate transmission. I'd stay away from more torque/hp with that in mind.

If the old tractor is just now making you think you need bigger, remember that you're using a tired old engine now. A FRESH new or rebuilt one will have more git-up-and-go.

I've tried a few times to get more out of a tractor than what it originally had to offer. (I tried turbo kits) You get the power at the trade-off of owning an unreliable tractor.

In light of all the time involved in rebuilding an engine, a "crate motor" from NH sounds mighty attractive. That's the route I'd go.

3000 Ford diesel or gas with a fresh engine is a great tractor. I've owned one of each.

 

[gamble77]

Did he give you an idea on how much a new crate motor would run...I would really be suprised if it were more affordable then rebuilding your motor.

Of course my thinking on a tractor the age of yours is if it will crank then I wouldn't fool with it. But, in your case if it will only cranks sometimes then rebuilding might just be the ticket. I know we can build a 3000 diesel for some where in the range of 2K-2.5K depending on the crank, etc. and that includes labor.

Good luck with whatever you decide, you have got yourself a mighty fine tractor either way!

 

[Spiffy]

The compression test will tell you a better story, but does it behave weak after it starts?

Not sure about the Fords, but I know a few other diesels in the 1950's and '60s were very cold blooded below about 40F - even with glow plugs!

So if cold starts are the only problem, you have a variety of cheap solutions: coolant heater, oil pan heater (the magnetics are a bit cheesey, but if you stick it on and pull it back off before put the tractor gear you'll be OK), ether (but never ether with glow plugs); and make sure you have a good fresh battery at the maximum recommended CCA.

If you do decide on a rebuild and do most of the work yourself, I'd be surprised if a rebuild exceeds $1500, but am only guessing.

 

[Soundguy]

I'm with the others. I wouldn't be looking to swap engines.. If I needed more power.. I'd swap tractors.

What are you wanting to do with it?

I'd also be very suprised if your's could not be rebuilt for a bit less than a reman.. unless they are having a 'sale' on the remans or something... remember... the remans had to be rebuilt too... and had to be mcahined.. etc..

Is the SOS working good right now?

Soundguy

 

[Kaliburz]

Thanks all. I guess pending the compression test, I'll hold off on ideas.

I've repowered JD's w/ newer, more powerful engines. We have an early 70's 2030 (60 PTO HP) that we put a 80 HP engine in 1993. It's now putting out 72 PTO HP.

I didn't actually talk to the parts department to find out how much a NH remanufactured engine was. A flier they had listed something like $4,500 for a "Reman 3 cylinder replacment level engine". What ever that means, the pic shows a complete 100% motor. It lists a 4110 (48 PTO HP)and 4610 (53 PTO HP) engine at that price. Two year warrantee on dealer installed engines, one year on the fuel system and turbo (if they have one).

I'll get some numbers off the tractor and venture in to see how much a reman in the same engine vs installing a newer reman w/ more HP. It's possible that only a limited types of engine might fit in the 3000.

Oh, it's not exactly "truely" a Ford tractor, not 100%. The power and propultion is from a Ford tractor. But... not how the factory imagined. It primarly runs a hydrulic pump via tractor PTO.

It's mounted on a Chisholm Ryder grape harvester...... (pics are located on the site in my uploaded pics) These are representative pics...not my actual machine.

The mechanic I did chat w/ who's serviced it said that Select-O-Speeds were installed in tractors up to 70HP. So in theory, the tranny should be able to handle the power. Then again, it's not pulling anything but it's self. (If the current tranny "goes" due to the replacing/rebuilding the engine, then it happens. Package deal came w/ a spare rebuild, ready to install Select-O-Speed.)

And she might be parked in a grape field, so the idea of plugging a coolent heater or oil warmer isn't so easy....unless I bring a generator and get there early.

A factory rebuild is what I'm leaning at, if the engine is avail and priced right.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Talk about throwin' us a curveball!

Completely different set of rules.

Since you're looking at PTO load only, and not putting much load on the final drives, a more powerful engine might fly. Still, I'd make any jumps in small steps.

The Select-O-Speed did come on 70 HP tractors (6000 Commander) BUT... They had a high fail rate. They weren't exactly the greatest thing Ford ever did. The were nice when working, but EXPENSIVE when they broke. I'd stay FAR away from one on a TRACTOR used as a tractor. What you have there won't load a transmission near as rough. Should do OK there too.

 

[slowzuki]

I've never had a diesel without glow plugs that would start at near freezing temps. The neighbours Case 585 only has a couple of thousand hours and at the freezing mark you can crank until the starter burns up and it won't start. At +5 C it will start after some cranking, at +10 not much trouble at all.

The Case - IH 584 we had with 6000 hrs on it wouldn't start at +5 even, needed plugged in.

Without power you need ether. The ford's and IH's had ether kits that mounted the can on the side of the engine with a dash pushbutton.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

2440 Deere started this winter @ +10 degrees, but that's with block heater. Started like summer.

Massey ferguson 150 started @ +7 DEGREES no heater, no glow plugs. Turned about 1 complete revolotion then fired. (Sure don't advocate starting a cold diesel without a heater, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do)

Old gas 3000 Ford had to be pull started on Jan 2nd when buyer came to get it. It had about ZERO compression left.

 

[Kaliburz]

I've thought about adding an "intake heater". I did that to my late model JD 2240. The 2250 or 2255 had a big 12V intake heater that could be installed.

In theory, if I took two of those and machined the intake maifold (assuming it's steel and not cast iron) and set the JD intake heaters in there.... I know that JD recently offered a kit for thier old 4010, 4020, 3010, 3020 (and that style) to put a intake pre heater. Not glow plugs..... but.

As I said, doing research here. I rather get opinions and options heard evaluated.

She is a different beast.....

 

[Kaliburz]

Today I gave all the model info off the tag to the parts people at the NH dealer (originally Ford). Told the parts person to price me a reman engine original application (same HP), then to find out if a 4000's will fit and then a later model.

I said I'd like to have between 50-55HP at the PTO, so I don't know what engine that would be. They're doing research so that I'll know options...... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Cylinder test will be hopefully this month. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Farmwithjunk]

simple block heater does the trick with no machining required. I've got a switch (in the house) that controls recepticle wher heater is plugged in. Just flip the switch about 1/2 hour before needing it, and I've got a warm tractor ready to fire.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( The mechanic I did chat w/ who's serviced it said that Select-O-Speeds were installed in tractors up to 70HP. So in theory, the tranny should be able to handle the power. )</font>

SOS were on tractors with higher than 70hp. Also.. each sos unit was built for it's class of machine. Just because you see a sos in a 70hp machine doesn't mean you can take one from a 48hp machine and smoke 70 hp thru it.. etc.

Soundguy

 

[dgl24087]

Also, the rear axles on the 3000 series and 4000 series are entirely different, the 4000 has the planetary rears and wet disk brakes, the 3000 have the older style axles and shoe type brakes.

 

[Kaliburz]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">( </font><font color="blackclass=small">( The mechanic I did chat w/ who's serviced it said that Select-O-Speeds were installed in tractors up to 70HP. So in theory, the tranny should be able to handle the power. )</font>

SOS were on tractors with higher than 70hp. Also.. each sos unit was built for it's class of machine. Just because you see a sos in a 70hp machine doesn't mean you can take one from a 48hp machine and smoke 70 hp thru it.. etc.

Soundguy )</font>

Oh joy.....so Ford took short cuts..... now you're making me wonder what SOS the spare one is from.

Well, as I said, I'm waiting to schedual the compression test this month. If I do swap out the old 3000 40HP engine out, it would to something not so "wild". I would like 50-55HP at the PTO, so I'm guessing the engine would be around 60HP? I told that to my NH parts person who's doing some research.

Any how, the SOS in this application ONLY moves the machine. There is no "heavy" pulling. I'm sure the PTO system can transmit the slightly higher HP. I'm sure the SOS in the 3000 and 4000 were similar since their respected class ratings were 10HP different....

The price of each option will determin which one I go with, IF the compression test shows the engine to be tired. The options I'm thinking-
A)factory rebuilt 3000 engine
B)factory rebuilt 4000 engine (3 cylinder one, not 4)
C)factory rebuilt from a "newer" tractor (repower old 3000) to a updated engine to give 50-55HP at PTO (maybe a 4610 engine, if I recall my model numbers).

This grape harvester came w/ two tractor options up top. The Ford 3000 was used on the early & later models 4000 and an International. I was told the IH was 60HP.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Oh joy.....so Ford took short cuts..... now you're making me wonder what SOS the spare one is from )</font>

Well.. that's not exactly waht I said. What I said was that not all sos trannies were bolt in replacements.. just like not all ford clutches and trannies were bolt in replacements. for instance.. if you had a ford with sos tranny and wanted to swap in a 5spd.. you'd have to do some pto section work onthe rear end.. IE.. it isn't a straight swap. Again.. if you had a 5spd and wanted a 5spd with 2 stage clutch.. it isn't just a clutch swap.. there are about 14-20 different parts in the 5spd made for the single stage clutch vs the 5spd made for the dual stage clutch... etc.

Good luck with whatever you find.
( by the way.. the 3cyl engines were a good unit.. event he gas ones.. as it was the same block.. thus the gas ones were 'way' tough.. compaired to the 4 cyl models.. )

Soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ( by the way.. the 3cyl engines were a good unit.. event he gas ones.. as it was the same block.. thus the gas ones were 'way' tough.. compaired to the 4 cyl models.. )

Soundguy )</font>

Tough? Like a $2 steak! But the 3-cylinders greatest quality was (is) it's incredable torque compared to the older 4 cylinder version. Whata stump-puller!

 

[Kaliburz]

Speaking of torque, what is the torque curve of the 3000? I mean, I don't even know what engine RPM get's the max PTO speed. The tach doesn't have anything marked "PTO" on it. And if did, not ther now (there was a big sticker on the dash, but all there is is an outline of one now....)

As I said, I'm a Deere person.... new to Fords.

It's up to the parts person to tell me what they found out on what will fit in there......

 

[dgl24087]

PTO is rated at 2000 RPM, the only torque rating I can find is 122 ft-lbs. @ 1400 RPM.

 

[Kaliburz]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">( PTO is rated at 2000 RPM, the only torque rating I can find is 122 ft-lbs. @ 1400 RPM. )</font>

Dang, it's up there. Well, not as bad as Deere though... they have the engine speed up to 2000 RPM+ to get 540 in the back end.


Reading the "IT" manual I bought, I ran accross something that might be the issue. The manul talked about the "cold starting aid", a little thing that is screwed into the intake and bascially "burns" fuel in the intake to warm it up the air. The ignition is suppose to have a postion for it, BUT, it isn't the original key! The original is suppoe to have a "heat" and "heat start". And to make things more interesting, this little heater isn't even hooked up to anything, just a wire that ends.

Being the inquisitive person I am, I went to NH and asked the parts guy about it. Still available. I bought one, just incase. The mechanic that worked on it before said to test those, just jump a wire from the it to the battery. Take off the intake connector (connects intake and tube), watch for smoke, he said. It's a funny set up. The unit has a resievor mounted on the bulk head. The injector over flow and pump over flow go to this resivor, fills it and any extra returns to the tank. The bottom of the reservor is piped to the cold starting aid.

So, when I got home....I did as he said.... it smoked. So, like the book says....active for 10 seconds (I went 20 since I count fast) and turned her over /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Guess what, she fired right over and it was about 47 degrees (cold day). Tomorrow morning I'm gonna go test it again (after she sits in the cold over night!) /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif (Hope tonight is cold!)

I was thinking of buying the original switch, but I decided to just that push button would work, just install it in the dash below the key. Hold in for 15 seconds and crank her over.....

I guess you learn something everyday..... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif