too old to do it by hand

[AutoUnionTypeC]

John & Ed,
Firstly let me say I’m very sorry to see this thread head south; for the most part I’ve quite enjoyed it. Lets have a little perspective here though, both you guys were going well out of your way to grandstand, the advice given while substantive seemed more of an excuse then prime motivator. This little competition has run its predictable course……… two excellent TBN posters with hard feelings for the other.

Miles2go,
As to your choice I think it is a wise one. The 30hp Mahindra will handle a grapple nicely, I expect, and maybe even be a bit more stable then a smaller tractor. What I wouldn’t do is spend too much time worrying about the failure rate of Mahindra fluid drives. Even if its failure rate is higher then Kubota’s its only going to be a fraction higher of an already miniscule number. I’m fairly contemptuous of hydro transmissions in general, but the devil has to be given his due, and I would say that fluid drive is fairly bullet proof on all the major brands. As it is I believe it to be a bit of a red herring issue. Lets face it, it’s a common technology and for any maker to be very much better then his competition; is it not only unlikely but probably fleeting as well. I hope you post some pictures of your tractor and the work your doing with it; I’m interested to see these manzanita trees stacked and ready for the match. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards, Jamie

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Hiya Jamie -

As always, I appreciate your input and expertise, and perhaps more importantly, the way you express it. I agree that it's unfortunate that this otherwise productive thread has taken a bit of a detour (although I'm not sure if it's "due south" - maybe south by southwest?), but I'm not sure that I totally agree with your assessment of my comments as "grandstanding". M2G directly asked me for my thoughts, and I gave them to him. They represent my honest opinion about what machine I think suits his expressed needs. My interest is in helping M2G figure out what that machine is, not to prove Ed "wrong".

Miles does have 50 acres, and while he did say that he didn't intend to clear all of it, I get the impression that he has a bit of work to do. And he cited stability on some tough-sounding terrain as one of his prime concerns. Thirty percent is pretty darn steep, and although he said he was going to pretty much stay off of the worst of it, it just seems to me that the more stable the (loaded) tractor, the more he'll get done on those 50 acres.

I recently made a post in another thread (3130 too big?), that led me to do a little more research into some Grand L specs. If maneuverability is a concern, an L3430 is about 3" shorter, almost 6" narrower, and has about a 7" tighter turning radius than the L3830, and would make a fine choice as well. Comparing a Kubota 3430 to a Mahindra 3015 just might make me less prone to the kind of "teasing" that Ed was engaging in. These two machines are hardly worlds apart, but I'm going to stick by my assertion that when it comes to stability, the amount of mass that one has under his butt relative to the load being carried comes into play in a big way.

As for hydro reliability, I'm going to have to gently disagree with your view (as I perceive it) that they're all about the same. I simply don't buy that, and have to believe that (as I said before) Kubota's many more years of experience with them makes a real-world difference that exceeds the realm of "miniscule". I have just talked to too many service managers (one more just this morning) who tell me that they have never worked on a Grand L hydro to believe that owning one isn't a pretty good bet. I'm not stating as a fact that Kubota hydros are more reliable, but I am saying that that is a conclusion to which I myself have come, and is one of the main reasons I own a Kubota.

Am I "grandstanding"? Honestly, I think I'm just offering my best advice. Encountering differing viewpoints is one thing; feeling that I am being insulted for offering them is, in my opinion, quite another.

It's not my intent to harbor "hard feelings" toward anyone. It has always seemed to me that the best way to avoid grudges and ill will is to get things out in the open, and if you feel angry, say so, while adding as little fuel to the fire as possible. I believe it's my right to politely offer my opinions and express my feelings; I don't feel it's my right to attack anyone. I believe discussions can stay productive if they consist of the former, and are devoid of the latter.

John

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

I guess this post is what might be called an "open letter" - specifically addressed to Ed, but also "for the eyes" of all who care to read it.


I really do like this site a lot, and I'm pretty sure I've got a lot of company on that one.

The last thing I want to do is do it any harm, or do any harm to any of its many fine participants.

I tell a lot of people about TBN, and I almost invariably say that "it's not just about tractors". I think that in discussing and learning about tractors, we are provided opportunities to learn about ourselves, and how we interact with others.

That said: I'm having a lot of regrets about allowing myself to get angry, and for expressing that anger in this thread. If it's "good" to not allow anger to build up inside you, unexpressed, maybe it's "best" to not allow yourself to become angry in the first place.

I'd really like this discussion, and all others on this site, to continue in a positive spirit. I'd like to withdraw my request for an apology, and offer one of my own. Ed, I'm sorry I let what you had to say bother me, and I'd like to ask you to please forgive me for letting my pride get in the way of more important things, and for my part in any unpleasantness. And if, on some great "objective" scale, I was "wronged", I certainly forgive you. Life is WAY too short for hard feelings.

Plus, we still have to help Miles figure out what machine to buy - after all, isn't that what life's really all about? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do love "the truth", and the process by which we arrive at it. If "the truth" is that I haven't acted in the best interest of this site and the people in it, then I hope this is a step back in the right direction. After traveling most of the day on the current heading of south-southwest, there's not much to report that seems very worthwhile. I'd be very happy - and honored - to join up with you again on course "000"; true north.

John

 

[IslandTractor]

John,

I will take Jamie’s admonition as a chance to break the cycle (but can you believe he accused us of grandstanding…the nerve of those AutoUnionTypes /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) . I did not intend to be hurtful. I do sincerely apologize if that is how you took my post. That said, I have a few more things to add. In the future, I would respond to a PM if you really feel I am being inappropriate but I don’t think the legitimate tractor debates should be filled with this interpersonal stuff. Alert the moderators if you must but let’s try to keep the verbiage focused on important things like hydros and horsepower. I also think we need to be aware that even when posts are carefully crafted, they sometimes take positions or express opinions in a way that with raise the ire of other posters. “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen” is too harsh an adage in this setting but I do think we all need to keep our thick skin on to avoid unintended slights. We need to be polite but not so polite as to take the fun out of it. By the way, the only part of your post that sticks in my craw is the implication that I was calling you dumb. That annoys me as 1) it ain’t true and 2) I would not waste my time and effort conversing with someone I didn’t respect. I was jibing at you for use of a poor argument, I said nothing about intelligence. I may have said you were making a dumb argument but there is a world of difference in my mind between that and what you seemed to imply. Besides, this is a tractor forum, just how smart could any of us be? Joke, Joke, that is a joke John please do not respond!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Back to business:

OK, you love the Kubota HST, that is clear. Let’s leave it at that because I think we can agree that there is no objective data. I happen to feel that it is wrong to imply other tractors such as the Mahindra or Kioti are suspect but I’ve already posted on my reasons so won’t belabor the point. I will repeat that referring loosely to other posts is not a good practice and does leave one self open to criticism. I could (but will not) link to a very recent post you participated in about a Kubota L3410 that has had three separate hydraulic filters fail in a two year period, each time stranding the owner….does this mean Kubota’s hydraulics are not reliable? I wouldn’t bring that example up in a discussion about reliability except as a counterpoint in this particular discussion to point out the fallacy of using such data. My point remains that assessing tractor reliability on the basis of a few random posts on TBN is really an invalid practice and should be rejected. Many posts of individual problems….well, that would add credibility but only up to an extent. Do you recall the bashing Audi took twenty years ago about “faulty brakes” or “accelerator problem” because a series of lousy drivers mashed on the accelerator instead of the brakes…that wasn’t an isolated Audi problem but it got blown out of proportion in the media and it did almost irrevocable harm to the brand. That sort of rumor is easy to start and hard to curtail.

Onward. You still haven’t addressed the issue of stability on hills to my satisfaction. Why do you think the 3830 is more stable than a smaller tractor? I don’t believe you go tooling around on a hillside with your FEL raised 8 feet high with 900 pounds of logs just to one up some poor slob in a Kioti who can only raise his 900lbs seven feet. It is my practice and I assume yours (we’ve already established you’re not dumb after all /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) to keep a full FEL as low to the ground as possible when on a hillside. That said, it seems to me that having a full FEL low to the ground would tend to lower, not raise, the center of gravity of the tractor and might marginally contribute to increasing rather than decreasing stability. Is that wrong? I still think of stability as related to some combination of center of gravity and wheel base at least when the tractor is not moving. I don’t pretend to understand the effects of forward motion on this stability dynamic. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif So, educate me. The added weight cantilevered forward would probably adversely affect lateral traction generally on a slope but that’s a different issue. We might both slide down a slippery slope but how do the physics cause the smaller tractor to be less stable?

Just to finish (gotta run to the airport so I can rejoin the rest of you in the eastern time zone): I still like the Mahindra 3015 choice that Miles2go is considering. And I love that red color/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif. (I’m a bit sensitive about being part of the “other” orange tribe, red is really my favorite color). So Miles, my advice is **** the hydros, full speed ahead.
/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

Ed, glad to have you back. I must say, your last post has caused me to do a lot of thinking, and you've completely changed my mind - now, once again, I DO want a full apology. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Just kidding of course ... in keeping with your excellent point that humor is very important in any discussion.

I don't have a lot of time, so I'm not going to be able to go into anything strictly tractor-related - just wanted to do some "housekeeping", that I really do think is relevant .. not just to this thread, but to all threads, and all discussions anywhere.

I think we've all seen threads that "deserve" to be closed - when discussions turn hopelessly "ugly", as in - "well your tractor sucks". "Oh yeah, well your tractor double-sucks", etc.

I just want to offer (again) my opinion that it's important that we express ourselves very carefully; that we express our opinions without getting too "personal" ... admittedly, a judgement call.

If something is said in a thread that we don't like, I think it's OK to say in that thread that we didn't like it, as opposed to saying so in a PM. In a similar vein, if something is said to us in a PM that we don't like, I don't think it would be "appropriate" to respond to it in public.

As I've said, I think there's more to discussions about tractors than physics and mechanics - there's the interpersonal part. Tractors are machines with no feelings; we are quite different. If I feel "slighted", then rather than respond "in kind", I prefer to just say that I didn't like something, and ask if it could be said differently. When I fail to be anything but kind and respectful, I can only ask forgiveness; perhaps more importantly - when and if the tables are turned, I offer the same.

OK - my next post, assuming this thread stays open, as I hope it does, will have much more to do with physics than interpersonal relations, although again, I do believe that the latter is important to any productive discussion of tractors, or anything else.

John

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

OK, my 788th post, so please be nice. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Hey Miles, I was wondering if you could maybe fill us in a little more on just how much clearing of that 50 acres you can see yourself eventually doing. The more we know about your actual uses, the better. I've been picturing you having to do some fairly serious brush removal work, but maybe I've been making incorrect assumptions.

Without breaking out my slide rule, that's why I've been putting stability and load-carrying capacity fairly high on my list of criteria. I've also been picturing what a dedicated grapple can do, compared to a bucket add-on ... and of course, I've been reflecting on my experiences with moving brush on varied terrain, and how I think it's important to have a good amount of tractor mass, relative to the loads you're carrying. Ditto when you're using a backhoe I would imagine; the heavier the tractor, the more force you can put to the ground?

So, when does the tractor become "too big"? It's all pretty relative ... a 3430 is not a huge tractor; neither is a 5030, although it's not a small tractor either. Maybe my friend's M9000 is a huge tractor - at least until you park it next to something even bigger.

I looked a little bit at the Mahindra 3015 (online), and the specs do look pretty good. Maybe test drive a 3015, and then a 3430, and see if the 3430 seems too big. For 50 acres, I wouldn't call it "huge". And you might end up calling it "just right".

Anyway, hope this helps, and sorry about the detour from talking specifically about your tractor "needs". As I said, it just seems to me that sometimes this site is about more than just tractors, but I do realize that it is called TRACTORbynet.

John

 

[Jw5875]

Well I have a Kubota L3400 with:

5' box blade
6' grader blade,
DR 3pt Chipper,
Tooth Bar on Bucket,
and I am waiting fot my
WR Long RGB2 - 60 Grapple.

So far the electric valve has arrived with all the hoses / couplings etc. I have 40 + acres with cuttings and dead stuff from harvesting 20 yrs. ago. I ordered the grapple and hope to clear all of this with it ?????????? in my life time and maybe hire out to clean up other properties. So far the tooth bucket (with learning) has really been great for grubbing. I used the box blade to do some grubbing, and all I can say is if you have one, don't get destructive.

The grapple will surely make my life and seat time really enjoyable!!!!

I plan to post pics with all in/as possible.



jw 5875








i

 

[miles2go]

John,

The topography of my 50 acres is such that I will probably be working 5-10 acres for brush clearing. This will be spread out -- mostly adjacent to old logging roads and new paths that I can establish as the terrain permits.

JW,

I looked at the L3400HST yesterday. A lot of value in a Kubota for $17,000 with loader. It was the only Kubota I've tried where I didn't slide out of the seat. (What is it with those bota seats?) How do you like the comfort of the L3400 seat when working?

Can you tell me more about the grapple? Cost, capacity, mechanism of attachment?

And I didn't catch your meaning about not getting destructive with the box blade. Could you clarify? Thanks!

 

[Jw5875]

miles2go and all,

I have the gear drive, and it's only got 20+ hrs. after 1year. (traveling back and forth to build a new house) my neighbor put at least 17 hrs. on it keeping my driveway open for me.

The seat is not a problem for me, compared to the old International B414 I had.

The grapple I ordered from WR Long is due in any day and I am anxious to get it. I don't think that you really have to be real mechanically to install it. The price for all pieces was around $2500 including shipping which is another hassle.
it has to be shipped to business, most shippers will not deliver to a residence. As I stated, I hope to post pics.

jw5875

 

[3RRL]

Hi guys,
Well, this thread has certainly had some interesting twists and turns, being entertaining and informative.

I wanted to comment how frequently I see tractor sizing related to amount of acreage. Of course it must be taken into consideration. Consider the chores (and their size) you need to accomplish and the kind/amount of terrain go hand in hand.

Right or wrong, this is the buying process I used and I'm very happy with the tractor I ended up with.

1) Determine WHAT will your tractor need to do for you.
A list that reveals the size, power, weight, stability and attachments needed to accomplish your chores on your terrain and acreage.
2) Determine HOW MUCH there is to do.
A list that addresses the amount of time you will spend on the tractor trying to accomplish your chores. It will determine what you can/want to live with. Features such as comforts, gear/HST, cab...defining even more the kind of tractor you will need. Also consider the attachments you need/want again...what is most important.
3) Determine your price range.
This moves you into the tractor shopping stage and allows you to compare which BRAND tractor gives you as much of #1 and #2 you can get for the money. You can adjust your price range if necessary, by justifying/realizing your needs and quality at this point.
4) Pick the Dealer.
Take into consideration all the features and pricing and Dealer integrity/reputation. This is also the stage to consider reliability, warranty and him/haw about possible repairs, parts availability and future maintenance etc.
Also consider how handy you are working on it yourself.

NOTE: I've purposely use this order to make a clear definition of which tractor will do the chores first, then compromising with #3 and #4 to make your mind up. In other words, if money was no object, use #1 and #2 to determine what would be the ultimate tractor and then feathering it down to reality by using #3 and #4.

I'm sure I've left out a lot of details in this process as there are many, many more things to consider, but you get the picture. You've gotten good advice from all the other TBN'ers. If you've got a chore that the tractor can't handle because of power, strength, stability etc. you picked the wrong one. Otherwise, pin point those particular obstacles and use outside help by renting equipment or having it done for you.

My choice of tractor led me a little larger one to accomplish some unforseen tasks and was happy in doing so. I'm sharing a picture of a little obstacle that I had to overcome when my ravine road washed out.