too old to do it by hand

[MarkV]

Well this has been an interesting and respectful conversation. I would guess that the one thing Miles2go is learning is that it isn’t easy to pick the right tractor for your needs. Being that I keep a tractor of both sizes being discussed I thought I would throw my two cents in on some of the points that strike me as important.

I have a Kubota B21 and a L39 TLB. These are both tractors that Kubota promotes as their commercial models and have a good bit of beef to hold up in commercial settings. The reason for having both is power, weight and maneuverability. It still amazes me how much work one can do with a 20 hp diesel tractor. For miles2go and others going through the tractor buying decision you can not compare the 20 hp diesels to the 20 hp gas riding mower you may be more familiar with. The small diesel tractors will most likely run out of traction before they run out of power. Where the smaller tractors come up short is PTO hp if your needs include running larger mowers, tillers or ground engaging implements like plows or disks. Then it is tough to beat the horse power and weight of a larger tractor.

Tractor weight is a “good thing, bad thing” many times. The L39 with loaded tires (filling the tires with liquid to add weight) pushes the scales at over 7500 lbs. That is too heavy to use on my finish lawn and pushes the limit for trailering without special licenses and towing equipment. The weight does add greatly to the tractors ability to get the power to the ground and stability on hill sides. Both very important depending on the setting and tasks it will be used for. Weight is also a function of the tractors ability to be a platform that tools are attached to. After all a tractor isn’t anything but a mobile power source on which tools are attached to do desired types of work. Adding larger pumps and cylinders to a small tractor would make for wonderful loader specs but the platform the loader was attached to would not have the weight to make it useable.

Miles2go has a fair amount of acreage but it sounds like not all of it is accessible due to the hills. I would guess that when talking larger or smaller tractors their ability to maneuver would be self explanatory. My small tractor will go places my large one has to move things to get to.

I just had to add my comments to this subject. A grapple is a wonderful piece of equipment when you have a lot of clearing and object moving to do. It truly minimizes the manual labor involved and that is one of miles2go’s objectives. That said I would not consider putting one on my B21. In my opinion even light weight grapples are too heavy for small tractors. With loader lift capacities of less than 1000lbs the added weight of a grapple will many times use half or better of the loaders capacity. That may be fine for just carrying brush but you will have lost your limited capacity to remove the trees being discussed with the loader. And yes I know there are people who have added grapples to their BX tractors and are very happy with them. For me a smaller tractor is not enough of a platform for this tool. If a grapple was a must have for me then I would be looking at the larger tractor. We are saying it different ways but I believe that is part of Ct Tree Guy’s recommendations.

Miles2go, I would be focusing much of my attention to tractors stability on hills in your situation. I believe that a smaller tractor would do much of what you want power wise and particularly if you had a small backhoe to go after the things a smaller loader and power plant came up short on. I also find that on any side hill I have taken my tractors on the larger one feels more stable. So I would be looking for tractors that offered the widest foot print in size range I decided on. I would also recommend that regardless of size have the rear tires filled with fluid to lower the center of gravity. It makes a great deal of difference in stability and traction regardless of the size of the tractor.

I don’t normally write this much, guess the caffeine kicked in this morning. Regardless of what you end up with you are going to wonder how you did without so long. Good luck on the search.

MarkV

 

[miles2go]

Mark,

Thanks! Very nice summary of the issues and the pros and cons of different solutions.

And everyone ... this thread has been a real education. I also appreciate that the participants have taken the time and paid attention to my actual situation and conditions. That is rare in many internet forums.

 

[IslandTractor]

Grubbing with a tractor is certainly possible but using a backhoe is going to put less stress on the machine. Few tractor FELs, even big ones, are really built with grubbing in mind. The possibility of torquing the FEL arms would be a concern. Why do you suppose bulldozers have short stubby arms?

I'd still vote for the smaller TLB. You can use some of the savings over a bigger machine on hiring a bulldozer to make quick work of the smaller trees and you will not stress your new tractor.

There are also lots of future uses for a backhoe on a property as you have described so I'd think carefully about a purchase that doesn't get you a BH and keep within your original budget. The B21 rental you are considering would give you a pretty good idea of what the capabilities of the CK20 TLB is as these machines are pretty evenly matched in specs (there are differences but not things that would be important for your testing of the small TLB concept). On the other hand, as I noted in a different threat, the B21 should not be considered a good way to evaluate the smaller BX24.

That said, the bigger tractors you are considering are very nice machines if you decide to forgo the TLB idea.

 

[IslandTractor]

</font><font color="blueclass=small"> CT said:

I'm just thinking about stability on hills with the backhoe, and having to get set up into "hoe position" to deal with each tree, as opposed to just attacking them with a grapple? </font>

Well, I agree. I think you are correct that the set up time for the backhoe (few minutes) is greater than what would be required for the grapple (none) when attacking small trees. I guess my concern would be just how big a tractor do you need to efficiently remove these trees without severely stressing the FEL/grapple. I think of the grapple as ideally suited to lift and move big snarly ungainly piles of brush without causing the tractor FEL to even break a sweat. However the torque forces associated with ramming a grapple into an unseen root system and trying to dislodge it are another matter. Isn't that why bulldozers have very little lift and have such short thick blade "FEL" arms? I don't doubt a large enough tractor could do this type of work without risking injury but while something midsized like a L3830 has undoubtedly got the horsepower, it seems to me it's FEL design is optomized for an entirely different purpose (lifting) and that it would at least potentially be damaged by the types of forces associated with aggessive root grubbing.

The stability issue is a good question. The major weight of the BH is carried pretty low but is certainly higher than the axles. It actually stablizes the tractor for FEL work generally so I would guess the only concern would be moving laterally on a slope but even there, I don't know it would be different than a tractor with just FEL.

 

[miles2go]

Island,

I can add an 8' BH to the Mahindra 3015HST or 2615HST for $5600. Would stretch, but not break the budget. And I can do it at a later date if the FEL is clearly not up to all the tasks I have in mind.

I believe you were the one who suggested that Mahindra 15s were similar to the CK20-CK30s -- and that was a major reason I checked them out, because the Kioti dealer is much farther away.

The Mahindra 2615 and 3015 are robust looking CUTs which differ only in engine and FEL size. The 2015 is smaller, but still fairly beefy for a 20hp.

I haven't seen the CK20 or 30, but I suspect that the Mahindra 3015HST, with optional (in my future?) BH might be a solution along the lines you have advocated, while providing still better ground clearance than the CK20 and more hp. What do you think?

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> I guess my concern would be just how big a tractor do you need to efficiently remove these trees without severely stressing the FEL/grapple. I think of the grapple as ideally suited to lift and move big snarly ungainly piles of brush without causing the tractor FEL to even break a sweat. However the torque forces associated with ramming a grapple into an unseen root system and trying to dislodge it are another matter. </font>

Ed -

You beat me to the punch. I couldn't have said it any better, especially after today. This morning, I had a serious wake-up call regarding grapples and grubbing. I used my 5030/853/Bradco to rip out some fairly large and tenacious juniper bushes, and was reminded anew of why I made the earlier comment that my loader/grapple was not [at all] well-suited to such a task. What a pain. I totally agree with you, it put WAY to much strain on my machine. Not at ALL recommended. I can sum up my thoughts during that ordeal in one word: "backhoe". To heck with the minute or two it takes to get set up. I really do think it's the right tool for the job at hand. Sure, a D8 would be even faster, but I've already gotten in enough trouble for advocating bigger and more expensive machines. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have lots of ideas about what machine the backhoe might be sitting on, but I'll keep them to myself.

John

 

[IslandTractor]

MarkV,

Couldn't agree with you more about the capabilities of the 20hp TLBs. And I think your point about the fallacy of comparing a 20hp riding mower to a 20hp diesel tractor hits the nail right on the head. I don't have any difficulty understanding why a person new to tractors and coming from experience with something powered by a 20hp gasoline engine would tend to be thinking about >30hp as the next step. It is surprising just how big a difference the 20hp diesel is compared to the gas engine for tractor type work.

I'm starting to feel like a missionary preaching about the virtues of 20hp tractors for first time tractor buyers but I think it's important that someone points out that there is an amazing amount of work tractors less than 30hp can do. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[IslandTractor]

John,

Please stop agreeing with me. It is simply not as much fun as arguing. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Ed

 

[CT_Tree_Guy]

<font color="blue"> Please stop agreeing with me. It is simply not as much fun as arguing. </font>

Ed, I agree with you on that 100% /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


(But hey, not to worry - I have a feeling we have a little more "fun" in store before this thread is over. I've been biting my tongue on a couple of things, but I can't see that lasting much longer). /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Pax, John

 

[IslandTractor]

Miles,

I would not hesitate to go for the Mahindra. They have great reputations. I have not seen one myself but Mahindra's get good press on TBN and it is the only tractor company in the world that has won the coveted Demming award.

I would suggest however that you spring for the BH as part of the initial purchase. It makes sense given your intended use (better way to stump grub than with the FEL) and it is MUCH easier to justify when you are already writing a big check than it will be in the future. I think a lot of guys who could use a BH don't have one because they thought they would add it later as an attachment. A $6000 attachment is tough to get past the CFO once you've already forked over for the tractor.