Towing 10.1K with either Toyota Tundra SR5 OR F150 which is better?

[Too many Kubotas]

I've never pulled doubles with a Peterbilt, but I'm unsure why you'd think that pulling a 7000 lb. trailer with a 5000 lb. truck (1.4:1) is worse than pulling 130k lbs. of combined trailers with a 20k lb. tractor (6.5:1)!

I've never tried pulling 130K lbs., largely because the combined weight of the tractor and trailer(s) is generally limited to 80K total.

Anyway, the reason I feel that pulling 1,800 lbs. with a 1/2-ton was worse is that the trailer made itself very known back there. I'm used to the towed load not affecting the vehicle other than, obviously, when accelerating, maintaining speed up and down grades, and (in some cases) during deceleration.

Also, since the load on the tow vehicle is placed differently with a tractor trailer than with a bumper pull, roughly half of the trailer's weight is on the tractor making it inherently more stable. The same holds true to some extent for gooseneck trailers.

On the other hand, driving the tractor without a trailer can be as bad as a 1/2-ton pulling a trailer. Not because it's unstable going down the road, but stopping becomes tricky.

This non-sense of people wanting to say "what if". Like "what if the trailer brakes fail"......

But I will say....IF trailer brakes do fail.....Id rather have 10k behind a 5k truck (2x) than have a 25k or 30k behind a 9k truck? But somehow thats okay right?

The typical diesel 3/4 or 1-ton doesn't really need brakes for maintaining speed down grades or slowing down in general. Much like with a tractor trailer, the exhaust brakes and gears usually do the job just fine.

But when having to slow down or stop unexpectedly, brakes are obviously necessary.
That's why I ordered disc brakes for my 25K trailer, pulled by a 9.400-lb. 3500, even though I rarely use them.

 

[WinterDeere]

I've never tried pulling 130K lbs., largely because the combined weight of the tractor and trailer(s) is generally limited to 80K total.

You said doubles, which are generally limited to 147k lb. combined on turnpike, or 110k - 165k lb. for various states and roadways. If doubles are limited to 80k lb somewhere, that's not common, but irrelevant. Even at 80k lb. gross combined on a 20k tractor, you're talking 3.0:1, whereas you're calling 1.4:1 unsafe by comparison, which really makes no sense.

Also, since the load on the tow vehicle is placed differently with a tractor trailer than with a bumper pull, roughly half of the trailer's weight is on the tractor making it inherently more stable. The same holds true to some extent for gooseneck trailers.

I'm guessing you don't really know what a WDH actually is. If you did, you wouldn't make such statements, as they don't really make sense in this context. A WDH moves the center of load forward, off of the rear axle and onto the front, similar to an adjustable 5th wheel.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

Even at 80k lb. gross combined on a 20k tractor, you're talking 3.0:1, whereas you're calling 1.4:1 unsafe by comparison, which really makes no sense.


I'm guessing you don't really know what a WDH actually is. If you did, you wouldn't make such statements, as they don't really make sense in this context. A WDH moves the center of load forward, off of the rear axle and onto the front, similar to an adjustable 5th wheel.

As mentioned, that 20K tractor becomes about 40K with a loaded trailer attached, the remaining 40K on the trailer axles.

I do happen to be familiar with WD hitches, and especially like the ones with active sway control, like the Reese Dual Cam and Husky. When pulling that 16' enclosed trailer loaded, the need for headlight adjustment was reduced by quite a bit.

On the return trips, with the trailer empty, the anti sway feature made a big difference when passing tractor trailers. And that was pulling with a Ram 2500, which is noticeably heavier than a 1500.

 

[sd455dan]

A couple points that bug me about some 1/2 ton trucks -talking when rated to tow 10K or above

No half ton truck should be supplied with P rated tires with a door sticker that allows for towing over 10 K.... just seems wrong.

Brakes may be upgraded on these new half tons but running flanged rear axles versus 3/4 ton and above running full floater rear axles is also way less than optimal for towing above 10K especially long term near rated weight.

jmo and YMMV

 

[WinterDeere]

As mentioned, that 20K tractor becomes about 40K with a loaded trailer attached, the remaining 40K on the trailer axles.

Got it. That makes sense, a tractor is definitely carrying a larger fraction of the load on a 5th wheel, even when compared to a WDH. Maybe as much as 30% of a single (or the front in a double) trailer.

The tongue weight of any "bumper pull" trailer is also adding to the weight of the tow vehicle weight, albeit only up to 15%. The WDH transfers to push this COF forward, from behind the rear axle to somewhere between the axles, but it can't apply more than the tongue weight of the trailer itself.

And that was pulling with a Ram 2500, which is noticeably heavier than a 1500.

I did some searching on this, and it appears the newer 2500's with a diesel are indeed a good 20% heavier than the ubiquitous 5.7L 1500 gassers. The gap closes a bit when you go to a gasoline-powered 2500, but it's still going to be at least 10% heavier, within the same body type and wheelbase.

No half ton truck should be supplied with P rated tires with a door sticker that allows for towing over 10 K.... just seems wrong.

Yeah, it is wrong, and it is dangerous. I always upgrade to 10 ply rated tires ASAP, on each new 1/2 ton I buy. P-rated tires are just scary under load.

 

[Farmer495]

On paper, yes.

But I feel sorry for those who actually believe the largely bogus J2807 tow ratings, that emphasize speed up grades and acceleration over what counts in real life.

To me, the longer the wheelbase and the heavier the tow vehicle the better. And that's after having completely given up on bumper pull trailers.

I was very skeptical of a newer gas 1/2 ton being anywhere close to an older 3/4 diesel.

In my case my 150 is 157" wheelbase and my 250 was 156" wheelbase. Both had 10 ply tires. Pulling the same trailers on same roads I found no difference.

I have never had bumper pull trailer sway issues with either truck and found braking (with tandem electric brake axles on the trailers) the same (engine braking being better with the manual trans diesel of course, for the gas 1/2, running the automatic in M and manually shifting gives decent engine braking for the ecoboost)

 

[big bubba]

Comments like this show why I don't take much of this seriously.

Toyota will run better, longer.

agree, my 4x4 Toyota '92 "ricer" as the poster puts it has 310k original engine, running strong. though of course would not handle what the OP wants. just a comment on longevity and long outdated stereotypes of imports.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

Got it. That makes sense, a tractor is definitely carrying a larger fraction of the load on a 5th wheel, even when compared to a WDH. Maybe as much as 30% of a single (or the front in a double) trailer.

It's probably right about 50% with a typical 40' trailer, which has the axles in the far back. If the trailer is loaded evenly.

Anyway, to me the stability is largely about leverage. A bumper pull puts its forces at a pivot point three to 4-1/2 feet behind the axle of a pickup. A gooseneck has the pivot point less than two feet above the axle, so the trailer physically can't exert as much force on the tow vehicle even if both trailers weigh the same.

I don't care for RV 5th wheel trailers for several reasons, but one is that the pivot point is much higher than with a gooseneck, giving the trailer more leverage over the tow vehicle.

Even small differences in the length of the effective lever can make a noticeable difference.
Used to flat tow a Jeep with a '70s GM crew cab, and everybody bragged about how good a tow vehicle the Suburban was.

One day I towed my Jeep with one. Yes, there was an obvious difference. With a longer overhang the pivot was about four inches farther back. And it probably didn't help that the Suburban's wheelbase was 35 inches shorter, at only 129.5"

 

[WinterDeere]

I have never had bumper pull trailer sway issues with either truck and found braking (with tandem electric brake axles on the trailers) the same (engine braking being better with the manual trans diesel of course, for the gas 1/2, running the automatic in M and manually shifting gives decent engine braking for the ecoboost)

In my experience, trailers only sway when they have too much of their weight aft of their axle. Keep the tongue weight at 10% - 15%, and sway is a non-issue.

The worst is when someone sets up a boat trailer, with the boat bunked too far aft on the trailer. This can happen when they set up the trailer with a boat hull not yet carrying its engine(s), and then later mount some outboards on it. Not something you can quickly fix roadside, it usually involves getting the boat off of the trailer to make a big change in it's fore/aft position on the trailer.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

In my experience, trailers only sway when they have too much of their weight aft of their axle. Keep the tongue weight at 10% - 15%, and sway is a non-issue.

That's one thing I really like about my toy hauler - couldn't get too much weight behind the axles if I had to, since the garage is centered over the axles.

But I wouldn't recommend pulling it with a 1/2-ton as it puts around 5,000 lbs. on the rear axle, regardless of what's in the garage.