You would have to be a fool to buy a $90k modified Takeuchi with no warranty from the original manufacturer (Takeuchi). Have fun hauling it back to south Florida for warranty through Super Trak. I would rather buy a $59k ASV RC 100 and make the same money per hour and have a warranty. You?
Tracked Skid Steers - Good, Better, Best??
- Thread starter burnetma
- Start date
- Views: 25172
joemitchell
New member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 15
Hey UFM82, can you confirm for me that you run a Bobcat with a grinder every day please. I believe since I own one my opinion has some weight. I do have a K model, and while they may be good for dirt, they are not a clearing machine. Example, the radiator clogs every 4-5 hours, and its on the bottom of the stack and the hardest to get to. The machine is very front heavy with the mulcher; just the other day I backed over a little stump and the track came off due to all the weight being on the front(a tractor with 160 hours with a track off, thats a problem). With this FAE ive got you cant grind while going up a hill because the machine cant handle it, it will stall no matter how slow you're going. Like I say, a **** good dirt machine, but until Bobcat matches pumps and makes a forestry package with a bigger radiator to let stuff pass through it, it will NOT be a clearing/grinding machine.
Thanks
Thanks
QwikDraw
Platinum Member
I have seen the new forestry package and head, looks good. They are also coming out with a machine with a few extra horses under the hood...
jgl1962
Bronze Member
ufm82-
Well put.
You will soon see the Bobcatized Fecon available through the Bobcat dealer network.
I do not have the background in these mulchers that many of you do. BUT this one is built specifically for and matched to the output of the newest Kseries Bobcat High Flow machines. Specifically those built in late 06 and beyond with a further enhanced cooling package.
Lit and pricing is available to dealers on the net now.
With high demand attachmnets it's all about cooling the oil to maintain performance. Hydraulic flow and horsepower on literature are not the same as they are after you've run at full load for 5 hrs. A well cooled machine retains a greater percentage of it's advertised performance than those with less efficient cooling.
The are several machines out there with more flow and pressure than a Bobcat but NONE (Cat is a possilble exception) cool the oil right from the factory like Bobcat and the newest are even better at it.
Well put.
You will soon see the Bobcatized Fecon available through the Bobcat dealer network.
I do not have the background in these mulchers that many of you do. BUT this one is built specifically for and matched to the output of the newest Kseries Bobcat High Flow machines. Specifically those built in late 06 and beyond with a further enhanced cooling package.
Lit and pricing is available to dealers on the net now.
With high demand attachmnets it's all about cooling the oil to maintain performance. Hydraulic flow and horsepower on literature are not the same as they are after you've run at full load for 5 hrs. A well cooled machine retains a greater percentage of it's advertised performance than those with less efficient cooling.
The are several machines out there with more flow and pressure than a Bobcat but NONE (Cat is a possilble exception) cool the oil right from the factory like Bobcat and the newest are even better at it.
Last edited:
jgl1962
Bronze Member
joemitchell
I skipped your post when I replied to ufm's.
The newest of the Kseries large frames from the S220-T300's have even more flow through the fan drive motor and they have changed the path the air moves through to make it more efficient.
A major part of the Bobcat Forestry Cutter pkg is a mandatory forestry kit that comes with:
engineered radiator screen (flat perforated steel elevated aroud the edges to add air flow) hard to describe here. with that is a very rugged tailpipe shroud that protects the exhaust an prevent debris from entering engine compartment.
Level 2 FOPS kit for the cab
3/4 lexan door with interlock and escape provison.
lexan top and rear windows
lexan headlight guards
sheilds to protect the hoses and tubelines at the rear of the lift arms (also keep crap out of the engine compartment).
lastly they have a steel box that bolts around to support and protect the hydraulic coupler block.
all at price that should please you..TT your local dealer.
I know exactly what you mean about the crap collecting in the cooling stack. We would have lost a coupler engines with guys that use the rotary cutters had it not been for the shutdown feature on the Bobcat. The fine would go through the top layer (or 2) on the cooling stack and collect on top of the actual radiator. The machines would get hot, the iodoit light and beepers go off theyd shut down and go look under the radiator screen and see nothing.
But the bottom layer was completely clogged with seeds and fine debris. Cheap screens solve this problem but wouldn't hold up in a forestry situation
I believe they did a good job addressing the issue.
I skipped your post when I replied to ufm's.
The newest of the Kseries large frames from the S220-T300's have even more flow through the fan drive motor and they have changed the path the air moves through to make it more efficient.
A major part of the Bobcat Forestry Cutter pkg is a mandatory forestry kit that comes with:
engineered radiator screen (flat perforated steel elevated aroud the edges to add air flow) hard to describe here. with that is a very rugged tailpipe shroud that protects the exhaust an prevent debris from entering engine compartment.
Level 2 FOPS kit for the cab
3/4 lexan door with interlock and escape provison.
lexan top and rear windows
lexan headlight guards
sheilds to protect the hoses and tubelines at the rear of the lift arms (also keep crap out of the engine compartment).
lastly they have a steel box that bolts around to support and protect the hydraulic coupler block.
all at price that should please you..TT your local dealer.
I know exactly what you mean about the crap collecting in the cooling stack. We would have lost a coupler engines with guys that use the rotary cutters had it not been for the shutdown feature on the Bobcat. The fine would go through the top layer (or 2) on the cooling stack and collect on top of the actual radiator. The machines would get hot, the iodoit light and beepers go off theyd shut down and go look under the radiator screen and see nothing.
But the bottom layer was completely clogged with seeds and fine debris. Cheap screens solve this problem but wouldn't hold up in a forestry situation
I believe they did a good job addressing the issue.
Robbie Hegwood
Platinum Member
Hey UFM82, What kind of guarantee are you offering. Loftness has about 8 different hyd motor sizes to match the gpm of machines there heads will be run on. We double checked mine before purchase.
And I'll back up Joe 100%, unless you can look out the window and see your mulcher we'll stick to our opinions about these tractors. We run them everyday and know what works and doesn't.
And to some peoples defense on most head manufacturers web sites it says nothing about hyd motor sizing if it's even an option. But you are correct that most dealers do not know this either. I believe this is why My head works so well is it IS sized correctly to my tractor.
Tractors evolve with every model. But if Bobcat is changing so much to run mulchers, H.P., add. cooling, etc. Then maybe it wasn't quite the machine to start with. ASV are just designed from the beginning to better suite mulching.
I believe ASV has been making tracked machines long enough to know what there doing. Every machine has it's weak points but as a whole the ASV is pretty tough. I've also not heard of any track throwing problems since CAT and ASV joined up a few years ago. There are applications were a Bobcat style track system prevails and the shorter and wider stance of bobcats would be desired.
signed "NO ONE"
And I'll back up Joe 100%, unless you can look out the window and see your mulcher we'll stick to our opinions about these tractors. We run them everyday and know what works and doesn't.
And to some peoples defense on most head manufacturers web sites it says nothing about hyd motor sizing if it's even an option. But you are correct that most dealers do not know this either. I believe this is why My head works so well is it IS sized correctly to my tractor.
Tractors evolve with every model. But if Bobcat is changing so much to run mulchers, H.P., add. cooling, etc. Then maybe it wasn't quite the machine to start with. ASV are just designed from the beginning to better suite mulching.
I believe ASV has been making tracked machines long enough to know what there doing. Every machine has it's weak points but as a whole the ASV is pretty tough. I've also not heard of any track throwing problems since CAT and ASV joined up a few years ago. There are applications were a Bobcat style track system prevails and the shorter and wider stance of bobcats would be desired.
signed "NO ONE"
UFM82-
I don't post here much, but I couldn't resist replying to your post about the Bobcat and the ASV RC100 being an "Ag" machine. First off, I used to be a salesman at a Wisconsin Bobcat dealer, and I was very successful. I now work as a middle school math teacher, but I work on the side with an S220 and an RC50. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable in the skid steer industry.
My first point...you are correct that Bobcat has been in the "tracked" market since the late 90's, however, other than changing chassis from the 863 to the S-Series, the only significant changes they have made to the undercarriage is to add another roller, and improve their seals some. Not drastic by any means. The track is still a mini-ex track made by Bridgestone (the same track that JD, NH, Komatsu, and Case use), the rollers are still mini-ex style, and the technology is old and made for operation at slow speeds. I experienced first hand the problems that Bobcat has had with their tracked machines, and I still converse regularly with current Bobcat salesmen, and they still face their challenges. At least in WI, the bobcat saleman that i deal with will point out that their tracks last just over half of the life of the ASV tracks on average.
My second point....The disadvantage of rubber wheels in the ASV undercarriage is a perception that Bobcat and others have tried to generate. I regularly use my RC50 to spread base rock and gravel. It is very true that I have experienced chips and grooves in my wheels, but I haven't changed any of them. They don't look new, yet at the same time they don't frive the rocks into my track, causing cuts and the introduction of moisture that corrodes the cords and causes failure like on the Bobcat and other rubber tracks with steel in them. I've had lengthy conversations with my ASV salesman, and the primary purpose the rubber wheels serve in their undercarriages is to act as a cushion when debris gets in the U/C, distribute weight, and help to guide the tracks.
Third comment....The T300 is gutless trying to run a mulching head. I've run them many times, even the FECON, and the weak link is a 3.3L engine trying to drive 37 gpm at 3300psi, along with raising and lowering loader arms, running tracks, etc. I have also run the RC100 with a FECON, and Loftness head. There is no comparison between the RC100 and the T300. I would estimate that the production difference is near 30% in favor of the RC100. It has a 4.4L engine that produces significantly more hp. i have been shown data that clearly shows tha tthe ASV RC100 has far better cooling capability than the T-300 K-Series. If I remember correctly, the ASV salesman stated that the RC100's hyd. oil temp after 10 minutes with a 2000psi load placed on it was around 160F. The Bobcat was running an oil temp over 225F after 6 minutes based on what he told me. Also, the RC100 was putting out around 66 actual hyd. hp at the mulching head and the T-300 was only putting out around 46HP and it wasn't even near 37gpm at 3300 psi, as a matter of fact I think it was only putting out around 20gpm at 3000psi. Once again, the advantage of a larger displacement engine and hp needed to drive a hyd. pump. If I remember correctly, the RC100 was putting out around exactly 38gpm at 3000psi, a benefit of the variable displacement load sensing pump that ASV uses. Unless Bobcat has changed the K-Series, they still use a standard gear pump that is belt driven due to the transverse mounted engine. I beleive that a direct driven pump is better. you don't have to deal with the inefficiency of a gear pump (compared to a piston pump) or belt slippage as the pump belt ages.
I'm definitely not trying to start a flame war, but ASV has been building track machines much longer than Bobcat, and they've built them from the beggining to be tracked machines and haven't taken existing skid steers and turned them into tracked machines, i.e. the same engines, ground clearances, wider widths, poorer hp to weight ratios, same cooling packages, mini-ex technology, etc. i appreciate your opinion, but I have sold Bobcat, own a Bobcat skid, but bought an ASV RC50. I don't regret my choice.
I don't post here much, but I couldn't resist replying to your post about the Bobcat and the ASV RC100 being an "Ag" machine. First off, I used to be a salesman at a Wisconsin Bobcat dealer, and I was very successful. I now work as a middle school math teacher, but I work on the side with an S220 and an RC50. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable in the skid steer industry.
My first point...you are correct that Bobcat has been in the "tracked" market since the late 90's, however, other than changing chassis from the 863 to the S-Series, the only significant changes they have made to the undercarriage is to add another roller, and improve their seals some. Not drastic by any means. The track is still a mini-ex track made by Bridgestone (the same track that JD, NH, Komatsu, and Case use), the rollers are still mini-ex style, and the technology is old and made for operation at slow speeds. I experienced first hand the problems that Bobcat has had with their tracked machines, and I still converse regularly with current Bobcat salesmen, and they still face their challenges. At least in WI, the bobcat saleman that i deal with will point out that their tracks last just over half of the life of the ASV tracks on average.
My second point....The disadvantage of rubber wheels in the ASV undercarriage is a perception that Bobcat and others have tried to generate. I regularly use my RC50 to spread base rock and gravel. It is very true that I have experienced chips and grooves in my wheels, but I haven't changed any of them. They don't look new, yet at the same time they don't frive the rocks into my track, causing cuts and the introduction of moisture that corrodes the cords and causes failure like on the Bobcat and other rubber tracks with steel in them. I've had lengthy conversations with my ASV salesman, and the primary purpose the rubber wheels serve in their undercarriages is to act as a cushion when debris gets in the U/C, distribute weight, and help to guide the tracks.
Third comment....The T300 is gutless trying to run a mulching head. I've run them many times, even the FECON, and the weak link is a 3.3L engine trying to drive 37 gpm at 3300psi, along with raising and lowering loader arms, running tracks, etc. I have also run the RC100 with a FECON, and Loftness head. There is no comparison between the RC100 and the T300. I would estimate that the production difference is near 30% in favor of the RC100. It has a 4.4L engine that produces significantly more hp. i have been shown data that clearly shows tha tthe ASV RC100 has far better cooling capability than the T-300 K-Series. If I remember correctly, the ASV salesman stated that the RC100's hyd. oil temp after 10 minutes with a 2000psi load placed on it was around 160F. The Bobcat was running an oil temp over 225F after 6 minutes based on what he told me. Also, the RC100 was putting out around 66 actual hyd. hp at the mulching head and the T-300 was only putting out around 46HP and it wasn't even near 37gpm at 3300 psi, as a matter of fact I think it was only putting out around 20gpm at 3000psi. Once again, the advantage of a larger displacement engine and hp needed to drive a hyd. pump. If I remember correctly, the RC100 was putting out around exactly 38gpm at 3000psi, a benefit of the variable displacement load sensing pump that ASV uses. Unless Bobcat has changed the K-Series, they still use a standard gear pump that is belt driven due to the transverse mounted engine. I beleive that a direct driven pump is better. you don't have to deal with the inefficiency of a gear pump (compared to a piston pump) or belt slippage as the pump belt ages.
I'm definitely not trying to start a flame war, but ASV has been building track machines much longer than Bobcat, and they've built them from the beggining to be tracked machines and haven't taken existing skid steers and turned them into tracked machines, i.e. the same engines, ground clearances, wider widths, poorer hp to weight ratios, same cooling packages, mini-ex technology, etc. i appreciate your opinion, but I have sold Bobcat, own a Bobcat skid, but bought an ASV RC50. I don't regret my choice.
Robbie Hegwood
Platinum Member
Digdeep, WOW!! Very technical comparison. You are very knowledge in skid steers. Thanks for sharing. That's comparing apples to apples. Robbie
joemitchell
New member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2007
- Messages
- 15
It sure is good to hear someone thats knowledgeable confirm there is a power problem with the t-300 w/ mulching head, since my dealership won't. thanks digdeep
