Tractor dies intermittantly

[CalG]

It appears these fuel cut off solenoid issues can be perplexing.

Even if you run a JD
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...2-help-interpreting-wiring-diagram-using.html

 

[Jerry/MT]

I can't put an advantage to the system either, but that is what is fitted to the tractor I have. It's the symptom of running on after the ignition switch is turned to off that leads me to say the fuel valve is open when the solenoid is de-energized. It could be some other control or input. I've read the service manual, and thoroughly investigated the operation of the Control Unit. It's a "Black Box" to me. Three wires in. One is fused 10A directly from the 12v DC bus, two come from the ignition switch. Two wires out to the solenoid, and a ground.

The problem could be as simple as a loose fuse holder on one of several circuits.

ETA These tractors were offered by the SDF group with an air cooled diesel engine as an option. Looking at the wiring schematics for that version, the fuel cut off solenoid is wired "logically". That is, a single wire from the key switch. Although it is a bit confusing in that the single glow heater is in series with the solenoid winding. Figure that one ! ;-)

OK Here is why the system is the way it is.
Woodward | External Solenoid Control Electronics

It takes a lot of force to actuate the fuel valve. That goes along with how solenoids function. Force and distance etc.

OK I understand how this solenoid works. it still performs a binary function but it has dual solenoids; a high current solenoid for opening the fuel valve and a low current solenoid to hold it open continuously. There is a timer circuit to only allow the high current solenoid to be energized for about 1 second. If I were designing it I would eliminate the timer and just design the solenoid to have the same pull in force and be able to run continuously. Lower part count = lower cost and better reliability since no timer to fail.

 

[davemhughes]

Wow...lots to soak up.

After work I started it and then brush hogged for 3hrs tonight, never missed a beat. Plan to dig into it in the morning. I am just going to run through as much as possible as what has been suggested and see. I guess the only way I will know if it's fixed is if it never happens again :laughing:

 

[CalG]

OK I understand how this solenoid works. it still performs a binary function but it has dual solenoids; a high current solenoid for opening the fuel valve and a low current solenoid to hold it open continuously. There is a timer circuit to only allow the high current solenoid to be energized for about 1 second. If I were designing it I would eliminate the timer and just design the solenoid to have the same pull in force and be able to run continuously. Lower part count = lower cost and better reliability since no timer to fail.

Jerry

You are absolutely correct, but the reference was only to high light the need for a low energy option. The S+L+H tractor I have has only a single bobbin solenoid, (two wires only, one supply, one return) S+L+H must use a "different" method to reduce the power consumption and heating than does the two bobbin execution. The running on after the ignition key has cut electrical power suggests as much. Today, I pulled the fuse that powers the cutoff control unit directly. The engine remained running. A symptom the OP has had previously.
I'm not saying the OP's tractor is exactly the same as mine, but it is very close. I'm assuming it has similar components due to the commonality of the Mitsubish engine. Mine has a K4F-D I believe the OP has a K4F-DT. All the same excepting the Turbo, manifolds and the fuel injector output.

If you could design a solenoid with the required pull in force and still fit the space envelope, there is a world waiting to beat a path to your door step. Perhaps newer technology could be applied, but the old manufacturing lines have the momentum and cost advantage.

I'm feeling that it is either a soft semi conductor within the control unit, OR a simple poor connection that triggers an inappropriate response from the control unit. I hate to spend $100 replacing a "black box" only to find it was some small tab of metal that needed cleaning and bending. I've been though the connections on my tractor several times without change. I'm hoping the OP will have better success!

 

[Jerry/MT]

Wow...lots to soak up.

After work I started it and then brush hogged for 3hrs tonight, never missed a beat. Plan to dig into it in the morning. I am just going to run through as much as possible as what has been suggested and see. I guess the only way I will know if it's fixed is if it never happens again :laughing:

Systematically check out any changes right after you make the change. Then you'll know what the root cause of the problem was.

 

[CalG]

This description of the shut off function taken from the service manual

3.3 ENGINE STOP SYSTEM
The engine stop system is designed to stop the engine when the operator turns the key to position 徹 (OFF).
The system comprises two main components:
1 - Engine Stop control unit (X21 - X22)
2 - Engine Stop solenoid (X35)
The engine is stopped when the solenoid (X35) is activated.
To do this, the engine stop control unit (X21 - X22) energises the solenoid for a brief period (5-6 sec.) when the starter key
is turned to position 徹 (OFF).
To prevent the engine stopping as result of voltage drops during starting, the engine starting signal is also sent to the engine stop control unit.
[end quote]

Note: X21- X22 and X35 are connector designations.

 

[Johnnyg1200]

OK I understand how this solenoid works. it still performs a binary function but it has dual solenoids; a high current solenoid for opening the fuel valve and a low current solenoid to hold it open continuously. There is a timer circuit to only allow the high current solenoid to be energized for about 1 second. If I were designing it I would eliminate the timer and just design the solenoid to have the same pull in force and be able to run continuously. Lower part count = lower cost and better reliability since no timer to fail.

The reason for the high and low current is it takes more current to move the solenoid than to hold it. If you used high current to hold it the solenoid would fail prematurely. I know it seems like it was over thought but it actually makes sense. You see the same thing with relays. There are momentary and constant duty relays. If you mix them they may work for a while but they wont last.

I have seen problems like yours on the Cummins engines at work and the fuel cut off solenoid is a common cause. I know its not a tractor but the idea should be similar.

 

[CalG]

To further the cause through example.

Yesterday the Hurlimann was used to move a few things around . Started right up and ran perfectly for about 1/2 hour. But then after backing into the shed, turning the key to off only shut down the dash display etc. while the engine kept running. A quick flip of the fuel pump cut off lever shut the engine down no problem.

Today, was a chipper shredder day. About 3 hours at 2200 rpm with everything off the pto. The fuel cut off decided to shut down once in the first hour, then A-OK. I had time to release the pto clutch , set the throttle back a bit, climb into the seat and depress the clutch to satisfy the interlock, then I heard the fuel cut off solenoid "clunk" open. The engine started right up again and worked flawlessly for the remainder. After backing into the shed to put the tractor away, the key was turned to the off position, and the engine shut down as neat as you please. Go figure! ;-)

I'm buying a replacement engine cut off control unit as soon as I can find a source! Can anyone suggest a good D-F dealer that speaks Hurlimann? The nearest identified dealer in on the west coast of New York state ;-)

 

[davemhughes]

I believe these guys are knowledgeable about as they have been a long time Deutz dealer. I think the control cutoff unit is the same on all the Mitsubishi diesel tractor engines. I may need one of those also if the fixes don't work. You have a picture of it and I will look also.

Anderson Equipment Claycenter, KS 785-944-3370

 

[CalG]

I do not have a picture of the unit. just a rectangular line drawing on a wire schematic.

I do have several part references. For the Hurlimann Prince 435 from a copied service manual purchased off ebay some years ago.

Engine Cutout Control Unit Code 008.7630.4
model YMS-1 B
input voltage 9-15
resistance 1.7 ohms

Then from a parts reference for a late model AgroKid The schematic shows a "Control Timer" I6A11-1400.
This application shows an interface with the oil pressure sensor. There is no similar connection shown in the schematic for the Hurlimann 435. I believe this added feature is applicable to the later models only.

 

[Jerry/MT]

The reason for the high and low current is it takes more current to move the solenoid than to hold it. If you used high current to hold it the solenoid would fail prematurely. I know it seems like it was over thought but it actually makes sense. You see the same thing with relays. There are momentary and constant duty relays. If you mix them they may work for a while but they wont last.

I have seen problems like yours on the Cummins engines at work and the fuel cut off solenoid is a common cause. I know its not a tractor but the idea should be similar.

the operative word in my response was "design". You can design the solenoid to take continuous pull in current. It certainly is a higher current but you can design for it. Bigger diameter windings should do it and the resistance would be less and the I^2 * R losses ( i.e. heat in the coil) should be less. As CalG pointed out, the envelop of the solenoid would most likely be bigger so that has to be accounted for in the design integration into the engine installation.

 

[CalG]

the operative word in my response was "design". You can design the solenoid to take continuous pull in current. It certainly is a higher current but you can design for it. Bigger diameter windings should do it and the resistance would be less and the I^2 * R losses ( i.e. heat in the coil) should be less. As CalG pointed out, the envelop of the solenoid would most likely be bigger so that has to be accounted for in the design integration into the engine installation.

I would prefer NOT to have the power draw of such a device.

Example. In preparation for the coming winter, I needed to "put away" the sports car, and mount the snow plow on the Fordson. Having the Hurlimann and the Bolens as "lawn and yard" tractors, the Fordson hadn't been run since last winter. (and we didn't have much of a winter at that) Still, with a MAGNETO ignition, the 65 year old Fordson started right up. No battery drain, nothing that needed any "cold cranking amps", just turn on the fuel tap, set the choke, the throttle, and the ignition advance and give the handle a pull. Ahh,,,simplicity! ;-)

 

[Jerry/MT]

I would prefer NOT to have the power draw of such a device.

Example. In preparation for the coming winter, I needed to "put away" the sports car, and mount the snow plow on the Fordson. Having the Hurlimann and the Bolens as "lawn and yard" tractors, the Fordson hadn't been run since last winter. (and we didn't have much of a winter at that) Still, with a MAGNETO ignition, the 65 year old Fordson started right up. No battery drain, nothing that needed any "cold cranking amps", just turn on the fuel tap, set the choke, the throttle, and the ignition advance and give the handle a pull. Ahh,,,simplicity! ;-)

Personally, I prefer fewer failure modes. With a block heater in the winter, starting is not an issue.

 

[davemhughes]

Well so far I completely drained and cleaned the fuel tank. I then took the fuel filter off and drained and cleaned it ensuring fuel flowed correctly. I took some bends out of the fuel lines. I turned the ignition switch on a let fuel flow to ensure it all flowed well and the pump was pumping. The intermittent dying continued with the Stop Solenoid making it's clicking sounds. Could not find this mysterious "Module" and I completely removed the loader arms and hood and mounts to really get in there and look around for wires and anything else that did not look right. I also checked my digital service manual for it also.

I ordered a new ignition switch and ordered a new Stop Solenoid from China paying for quicker shipping. I hate changing parts like this but I figure it cheaper than letting the dealer do the same thing and paying threw the nose for it.

 

[CalG]

I'm quite sure you will find the Fuel cut off control unit, the blinker control box and the heater timer under the steering cowl. Mounted to the fire wall. You will find them when you put in that switch ;-)

What model tractor do you have? SAME Solaris ##?

While you are waiting for the parts to arrive, unplug one or both of the wires connecting the shut off solenoid when you need to use the tractor. 'Just might do the trick to keep you running. ;-)

 

[davemhughes]

Thanks man, I guess I will see it when I do the ignition switch. Sort of dreading that part but like everything else it has to be done. I will remember to unplug the solenoid when it starts dying frequently until I change the part that actually needs changing to fix this.

I have the Solaris 40,owned since new (currently 681 hrs), just repaired the fiberglass hood that completely broke off :banghead:

2 more years and then I plan to get something bigger (50-60hp) but until then I want it to run right.

Also I checked and Anderson Tractor sells Hurlimann's

 

[CalG]

Thanks! I'll give them a call!

The hood on the Hurlimann is all steel. That made straightening out the rip when I was tumbling a large root an easy task with hammer. dolly, and the O/A torch. The head lights don't aim quite right now however ;-)

ETA Be ready for a let down when you "move up", These S&L&H (D-F) tractors are full featured in a small package. It's going to take some cash to get it all in another tractor.
A locking Front Diff is SPECIAL! ;-)

 

[CalG]

Your model may have the interconnection to the oil pressure sender which is located near to the fuel cut off solenoid.
And the interconnect to the coolant temperature sensor (I'm not sure where that sensor is located.

From the Agrokid service info, the oil pressure switch is a normally CLOSED switch (yellow wire), while the coolant sensor is normally OPEN. They both act to signal the cut off control unit through diodes, so the exact function may be obscured.

Here is an excerpt from the AgroKid service literature regarding the "Key cut off system":

"This system consisting of a switch, a control timer and a solenoid,
permits the operator to shut off the engine by turning the starter
switch key to OFF position. Another function of this system is to
shut off the engine automatically when the oil pressure is too low,
or when coolant temperature is too high."

Another item of note is that for the later modes, both "energize to stop" and "energize to run" systems are shown in the schematics. Easy to tell which, ETS has only two wires to the solenoid, ETR has three wires (with NO control unit!)

 

[pmsmechanic]

So if none of the parts you ordered solve the problem here is my solution.

If the fuel solenoid shuts of the fuel by having power sent to it for 5-6 seconds then it should be quite easy to wire in a momentary on switch (ie like a starter button) that you just hold in untill the engine shuts off. This would bypass all of the electronics. This doesn't solve the problem but it makes the tractor usable.

Also a faulty oil pressure switch could be causing the problem.

 

[davemhughes]

Great, now it could also be faulty sensors :confused3: Well to be honest if the parts I have ordered (Ignition switch & 2 wire Stop Solenoid) do not fix it I am going to concede defeat and haul it to the dealer so I replaced most of the expensive stuff by that time.

I need to check and see what unplugging the solenoid does as if that allows me to run the tractor I can just lug it down to kill it.

I agree the tractor has a lot of features but several I never use (Locking diff, rear remotes, 1000rpm PTO, Mid PTO)
Looking at the LS series tractors as the Andersons are LS dealers also. But I got to get this running first and then milk it for another 2yrs (Hopefully)