tractor hacking - JD's

[Texasmark]

Because car manufacturers outsource their/those parts to smaller independent suppliers, therefore they're available for purchase on their own. You can buy OEM or direct from the supplier. (my 4105 has a YANMAR donk... I can buy JD badged filters or locally stocked equivalent from an auto-parts shop)

According to your avatar list, you've got a fine collection of tractors... have you ever required a computer diagnostic programme/equipment to adjust or tweak your rigs?

Got what you wanted. I LMAO, twice.

 

[ericm979]

Well stated post adventure bob. I've not seen any of this kerfuffle reported here in Australia, New Zealand, Europe... Indeed, anywhere else in the world (including Canada).

That's because DMCA is a USA law. Deere is only doing this in the USA.

 

[vsteel]

Devils Advocate time ...

They recoup the costs on the sale price. Or they can software license it and say if you want all of the bells and whistles you have to pay but not lock you out of repairs. Just think if GM did this and you could only go to their dealers for repairs and no one else could work on their cars. "oh your air filter is dirty, yea, we can get you in next week and it will cost you $200. Do it yourself, lol, you are not allowed to open the hood or the car goes into limp mode." There is a reason that by law you have to be able to read the codes from your car. You don't get full access but you do get some repair diagnostics. With your tractor you don't get that, if they opened up the repair codes and would allow repairs 90% of this goes away.

 

[mrmikey]

....meant you had to start an apple account etc. way too much BS!

Agree, I bought an Apple (not sure of the name) streeming device that I could play my videos from my computer thru my dumb TV, I had to set up an apple account in order for it to work. Didn't happen, took it off, reboxed it and sent it back.............Mike

 

[Wagtail]

That's because DMCA is a USA law. Deere is only doing this in the USA.

Because Deere is the only US company; everyone else is foreign (Home Office).

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Speaking of US laws, compliance with those laws and the US Government enforcing these laws through their various Agencies [I'm thinking the EPA in this case]... Tier 4 could well be a motive.

 

[Wagtail]

They recoup the costs on the sale price. Or they can software license it and say if you want all of the bells and whistles you have to pay but not lock you out of repairs. Just think if GM did this and you could only go to their dealers for repairs and no one else could work on their cars. "oh your air filter is dirty, yea, we can get you in next week and it will cost you $200. Do it yourself, lol, you are not allowed to open the hood or the car goes into limp mode." There is a reason that by law you have to be able to read the codes from your car. You don't get full access but you do get some repair diagnostics. With your tractor you don't get that, if they opened up the repair codes and would allow repairs 90% of this goes away.

Hang on Mate, you're comparing 'apples to oranges' here. Changing an oil filter is not the same as changing a tractor's computer operating code.

Mechanically, you can do all of the routine maintenance, fluid/filter changes and part(s) replacement you want. If you want, JD will sell you the equipment + training to access and diagnose the computer. Just as they have sold and licenced their dealership workshops and Authorised Service providers.

There's nothing preventing a local diesel/tractor mechanic from becoming an Authorised JD/Kubota/Case IH/etc... Service Provider.

Just as there's nothing preventing a local vehicle mechanic from becoming an Authorised GMC/Ford/Toyota/etc... Service Provider.

When it comes to tractors, the SCUTs, CUTs and lawn tractors that we (generally) have, here on TBN, are not that 'computer controlled'. But the Big Boy Ag tractors, combines and speciality implements = an incredible amount of computer integration AND control; including fly-by-wire operation, GPS self driving and who knows what else. Do you want access to muck around with those computers?

Look, I don't work for JD and I don't hold any stock in the company. Sure, I've got four year old JD tractors with the computing power to run a digital hour meter. :laughing: I also don't have a 'dog in the fight' 'cause this seems to be a problem in the USA only.

I do think that it has to do with either JD having to cover their legal arse from the 'sue-happy' environment that the US seems to be OR that the EPA has leaned on them (JD) to prevent people from circumventing Tier 4 compliance (think 'constant regen').

It's a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[adventure bob]

You're absolutely right they recoup the cost on sales price. However they're not recouping millions in a single year to pay off the development. The company is essentially loaning their development arm the millions to go develop the technology. They wont recoup that cost in any short amount of time so JD protects the crap out of tech over the payoff period. My bet is that the payoff is 5-7 years, pure and simply business math. And you can do your own maintenance on commercial AG JD. To say you cant change an air filter is strictly asinine, same thing with fluids and other maint. However, in most commercial ag, they have contracts with field service companies that work when the tractors aren't. They do everything from maint to repair.

 

[adventure bob]

Also you can read your tractors data, you just have to pony up for a scanner that will do it. There aren't many $25 scanners that will talk to your tractor though. However my auto OBD2/CANBUS scanner will talk to any car. Oh yeah that's because they have a standardized maint bus across all brands thanks to the EPA forcing a standard. Tractors are still VERY proprietary. They have started using OBD/CANBUS to meet EPA reporting requirements, but they still utilize the "local code" functions heavily and most of their integration electronics are proprietary. Folks need to watch more RFD TV and less alarmist mainstream media. Lots of shows that talk about the technology of the farm to include the tractors.

 

[MHarryE]

I can't believe a farmer would want to tweak the code. There are millions of lines of code in New large at tractors and one misplaced bit turns your working tractor into a boat anchor. Witness the Boeing 787 - with all of its development, they discovered that if they leave the airplane powered up for some length of time it reboots. Now the time happens to be a long time but imagine being over an ocean and your airplane shuts down for a half hour reboot.

Before retiring, the 2 most popular machines I supported used the same engine with different software flashed into the ECM. Difference was 25 HP. Flash the wrong software into the lighter machine and trash the drive axle rather quickly if run at max power. Life over 10,000 hours with standard power. So should Deere stand the warranty if a person somehow learns to tweak his engine? Or tweak shift points. Or modify the torque curve and rip out the engine bottom end?

In developing software, I flashed new software into a machine one evening before leaving for Europe. The next morning when I arrived at work to pick up my stuff before heading to the airport, my right hand man told me we needed to visit our proving grounds on my way to the airport. There we found lots of engine pieces lying on the ground - pieces of the broken block, rod cap, etc. Turns out the test driver on the machine I had updated made it 90 minutes before it blew. Back at the engine plant they checked the software and found a major whoops. Now imagine thousands of tractor oners playing with the software with capabilities you can't imagine.

 

[AKfish]

During the past several decades of computer development and software progression has there not been previous situations like this?

Propriety hardware designs.... Software keys... Dozens maybe more efforts by corporations around the world to maintain some measure of competitive advantage or dominant market position.

Good luck - John Deere... You're gonna need it! You too, Fendt and Lamborghini.

The courts will chip away at areas where the corporate dictates unfairly infringes upon ownership rights. And where other manufacturers can reverse engineer and dissect competitors operating software - they will - maybe with the help of 3rd party hackers in the Ukraine!

This is just the latest front in the hardware-software wars.