tractor hacking - JD's

[adventure bob]

I have no doubt Deere will aggressively protect their concerns.
So as far as people wanting the control of data in the system... People want the same control in their cars and most of the general populace have no clue what any of it means. Most couldn't identify fuel air tables, have no clue what they mean, and then when you get one or two with a decent software package to read and modify the tables they alter the tables to the point where the car doesn't run right. Then where do they go? To the dealer. whining that their car "just started acting up." Amazingly enough the car will record the device ID and time that the hacker was monkeying around with the software. That's why dyno tuning by a tuner who knows what hes doing is so valuable. Same thing applies to JD. And by the way MOPAR ecu is still proprietary. Hack it and they will void your warranty on all electronics in the car. So while it would appear that some unmeasurable number of farmers want all access to the code in their machines, Id bet even a smaller number have any idea what to do once they're in.

 

[MHarryE]

If you think farmers don't have any intention of boosting power using software, you haven't looked at the back of your latest Shoup catalog where there are chips available to boost the power on many of the latest tractors.

 

[Wagtail]

If you think farmers don't have any intention of boosting power using software, you haven't looked at the back of your latest Shoup catalog where there are chips available to boost the power on many of the latest tractors.

Or of modifying/eliminating Tier 4 emissions stuff.

You remember what happened after those emission laws came into effect in the road vehicle industry = annual vehicle emission & roadworthy checks, mandated by your local State/Provincial government (for a modest fee, of course).

I can envision an annual visit to your property from a mobile State/Provincial Tractor Emission & Electronic Operation Compliance van if this keeps up, again with a modest fee attached.

Perhaps they'll do it at the same time they dip your tanks for red fuel?

 

[vsteel]

I'm confused that your concerned about a business making money. This is a free country and folks can choose to buy something else and move on. However, if this was such a gigantic deal, Deere would be scrambling due to the loss of business revenue. Their shareholders report doesn't reflect what this thread seems to argue: people don't want the tech in their tractors. Their sales of tech laden tractors just don't reflect that concern.

I have no issue with a business making money, it is when it isn't upfront about the money. Deere isn't the only one doing this, the tractor that we have issues with is a MF and the codes and code readers have been a nightmare. Deere was just more vocal so they have caught more flack. People are not upset about the technology in tractors, they are upset when the tech is used to lock them out of working on their machines. When you have collusion in the business world there is a problem. I will say it again, there is a reason that car companies are required by law to have an ODBII port and have codes available. The issue is the tractors are a small segment of the buying public so they don't get the love of more common knowledge products.

Yes there will be some who will want to mod or remove the emissions items from their tractors but all of the people I know would be happy if they could read codes and do some basic resets and calibrations.

Corporate farms are not even in the same level as a normal farmer. They have huge contracts and have leverage that the normal person can't touch. They get volume pricing and huge discounts because of the spend. I work in a company where I can get things at a discount the normal person can't touch. I can get things fixed for free that a normal person would have to pay out the nose for just because we have contracts with that vendor for millions of dollars a year. Corporate has nothing to do with the average Joe person trying to farm and ranch for a living.

 

[AKfish]

If you think farmers don't have any intention of boosting power using software, you haven't looked at the back of your latest Shoup catalog where there are chips available to boost the power on many of the latest tractors.

Of course they will... But, IMO that is only a small part of the debate! The horsepower jockeys don't care about the lawsuits or pending legislation.

They're gonna do what they want (like they've always done) and the devil can take the hindmost!

 

[AKfish]

I have no doubt Deere will aggressively protect their concerns.
So as far as people wanting the control of data in the system... People want the same control in their cars and most of the general populace have no clue what any of it means. Most couldn't identify fuel air tables, have no clue what they mean, and then when you get one or two with a decent software package to read and modify the tables they alter the tables to the point where the car doesn't run right. Then where do they go? To the dealer. whining that their car "just started acting up." Amazingly enough the car will record the device ID and time that the hacker was monkeying around with the software. That's why dyno tuning by a tuner who knows what hes doing is so valuable. Same thing applies to JD. And by the way MOPAR ecu is still proprietary. Hack it and they will void your warranty on all electronics in the car. So while it would appear that some unmeasurable number of farmers want all access to the code in their machines, Id bet even a smaller number have any idea what to do once they're in.

Yes.. The tractor manufacturers have SOME valid concerns. 'Cause there will be situations where modifications will result in catastrophic failures and owners may attempt to hide their shenanigans and make a warranty claim.

I saw this one year at a GM dealership when a guy pulling a 32' gooseneck travel trailer grenaded his Dmax and wanted GM to cover the $10,000 repair.

The dealer was trying very hard to uncover evidence of "chipping" in the entry log of the truck computer.

That said, the auto industry remains quite profitable even with that "open door"!

This situation reminds me of the early computer years - you might not remember Compaq - they had horrendously proprietary hardware. Of course, that made memory upgrades, etc. very difficult and expensive and (you had to buy their components) and incorporating their computers into a network with various drivers and initializing software was also wrought with glitches and frustration.

Those high-performance computers with their high prices went the way of the Dodo bird!

Deere and other manufacturers should pay heed to that history...

 

[adventure bob]

So for the sake of completeness I have done a pretty exhaustive search of news relating to this. Suspiciously absent from the debate are news outlets related to the farming industry. You know who seems very concerned about this issue? Not farmers! The anti DMCA crowd however is using this as a rallying cry. Wired magazine, BGR, Fox, ExtremeTech... In the first 100 hits on a search of the topic you cant find one farm publication. Searching the ag forums this topic seems to have little relevancy as well. What the anti DMCA crowd is doing is lumping JD in with Apple so they can get full and open access to their Iphones. They don't give a rats about farming or tractors. They just want open access to technology that they care about. Even the article posted in this thread isn't from a farming source. Its from motherboard, another tech magazine and this is probably one of the only stories they've ever done relating to farming. You'd think that if this was such a huge deal to farmers, you'd see the impact or at least traffic in farming circles and farm publications.
I don't disagree that people are always going to try to monkey with stuff. However this is no different than when this type of tech came to cars. It will norm out and all farmers will eventually have scan tools to reset codes and do levels of maint on their own. Just like I need a scan tool to change a fuel injector on my RAM, farmers will need a scan tool to change sensors in the field on their tractors. Do I need access to the boost tables and the timing curves for that? No. Neither do farmers. If you're a motor head and want to ensure your tractor is running at higher horsepower and don't care about cost per acre in fuel, then they're going to need some serious investment to be able to those mods. Just like SCT, Cobb, Diablo Sport or Edge had to do. Those guys didn't just start monkeying around to figure out how to tune your Subaru, or Honda. Theyres millions in research to be able to hand you a $500 tuner and have it not completely screw up your car.

 

[AKfish]

So for the sake of completeness I have done a pretty exhaustive search of news relating to this. Suspiciously absent from the debate are news outlets related to the farming industry. You know who seems very concerned about this issue? Not farmers! The anti DMCA crowd however is using this as a rallying cry. Wired magazine, BGR, Fox, ExtremeTech... In the first 100 hits on a search of the topic you cant find one farm publication. Searching the ag forums this topic seems to have little relevancy as well. What the anti DMCA crowd is doing is lumping JD in with Apple so they can get full and open access to their Iphones. They don't give a rats about farming or tractors. They just want open access to technology that they care about. Even the article posted in this thread isn't from a farming source. Its from motherboard, another tech magazine and this is probably one of the only stories they've ever done relating to farming. You'd think that if this was such a huge deal to farmers, you'd see the impact or at least traffic in farming circles and farm publications.
I don't disagree that people are always going to try to monkey with stuff. However this is no different than when this type of tech came to cars. It will norm out and all farmers will eventually have scan tools to reset codes and do levels of maint on their own. Just like I need a scan tool to change a fuel injector on my RAM, farmers will need a scan tool to change sensors in the field on their tractors. Do I need access to the boost tables and the timing curves for that? No. Neither do farmers. If you're a motor head and want to ensure your tractor is running at higher horsepower and don't care about cost per acre in fuel, then they're going to need some serious investment to be able to those mods. Just like SCT, Cobb, Diablo Sport or Edge had to do. Those guys didn't just start monkeying around to figure out how to tune your Subaru, or Honda. Theyres millions in research to be able to hand you a $500 tuner and have it not completely screw up your car.

That's not completely true.. This topic is on HayTalk and AgTalk. And I read a couple of links to farm publications in Nebraska posted on HayTalk.

Back and forth there amongst farmers. The DIYers are on board. The Old Iron crowd doesn't care. The BTO's can't see how it's gonna save them any money....

The routine maintainance and mid-level repair guys (like me) want more open access to the diagnostic code definitions and re-initialization codes once a sensor or relay has been replaced in order to re-start the tractor, etc.

I could care less about jacking my tractor up - Hp wise. I may only get one shot at putting my entire hay crop up for the year... I can't afford to wait 6 weeks or 2 weeks for a tech come to my farm.

I have the Technical Repair Manual; the Part's Manual, even the shop training manuals for trained JD technicians.

I don't have the JD laptop or the initialization codes for the tractor's computer to recognize a replacement sensor, etc.

 

[vsteel]

So for the sake of completeness I have done a pretty exhaustive search of news relating to this. Suspiciously absent from the debate are news outlets related to the farming industry. You know who seems very concerned about this issue? Not farmers! The anti DMCA crowd however is using this as a rallying cry. Wired magazine, BGR, Fox, ExtremeTech... In the first 100 hits on a search of the topic you cant find one farm publication. Searching the ag forums this topic seems to have little relevancy as well. What the anti DMCA crowd is doing is lumping JD in with Apple so they can get full and open access to their Iphones. They don't give a rats about farming or tractors. They just want open access to technology that they care about. Even the article posted in this thread isn't from a farming source. Its from motherboard, another tech magazine and this is probably one of the only stories they've ever done relating to farming. You'd think that if this was such a huge deal to farmers, you'd see the impact or at least traffic in farming circles and farm publications.
I don't disagree that people are always going to try to monkey with stuff. However this is no different than when this type of tech came to cars. It will norm out and all farmers will eventually have scan tools to reset codes and do levels of maint on their own. Just like I need a scan tool to change a fuel injector on my RAM, farmers will need a scan tool to change sensors in the field on their tractors. Do I need access to the boost tables and the timing curves for that? No. Neither do farmers. If you're a motor head and want to ensure your tractor is running at higher horsepower and don't care about cost per acre in fuel, then they're going to need some serious investment to be able to those mods. Just like SCT, Cobb, Diablo Sport or Edge had to do. Those guys didn't just start monkeying around to figure out how to tune your Subaru, or Honda. Theyres millions in research to be able to hand you a $500 tuner and have it not completely screw up your car.

Yes the farmers care, go talk to a few and you will find they really do care. Farm publications get their advertising from the companies they would be roasting. Yea, that is just not going to happen. Not to mention media is WAY behind in tech. When you read or see the next thing in tech in normal media, the people in the tech circles have known about it for years.

The difference is you can't get a scan tool unless you are a dealer or if you can you have to pay a ridiculous amount of money. This isn't new tech, they could make it like your RAM in a heartbeat, this is all known. They are not inventing new tech, they are taking things from off the shelf and putting them together and selling it to you. The tractor companies are not going to let scanners out until they are forced to. The car companies have scanners because ALL vehicles sold have a standard interface (they were forced, not because they wanted it). This isn't the "early days of tech" they know how to do it, they just don't want to.

If you know about the DMCA then you know what a horrid thing it is and the real reasons behind it.

I don't think you know how this stuff works. There is not "millions" in research. The tuner guys know what they need to do to make a motor run better, the majority of the time is trying to reverse engineer or break the encryption codes. Once they break it or break enough to make their changes they then play on a dyno. I would bet they don't have more than 400K in any scanner because it works on several models until they make major changes to the ECM.

 

[adventure bob]

AKfish, Could you please post the search criteria you found those with or even the links to those articles? They do not predominate the search results like the media outlets that are anti DMCA do.
VSteel, I don't think that farmers don't care. I cant however find enough preponderance of the topic and general outrage by the community as the non ag pubs would have you believe exists. An anecdotal farmer is not the sate or voice of the entire industry. I would think that if this was as big as the anti DMCA article make this out to be that every time you searched for any info on it there'd be current, relevant articles and forums popping up that had considerable amounts of traffic about the issue. It just doesn't seem to be making it to the top of the heap.
As to the R&D costs, I will have you the answer on the avg tuner development for a single vehicle release soon. I'm a member of SEMA and they have research on these topics. Ill bet you a virtual beer that its over a million on average. As to JD research I was way off: Last year they spent over a BILLION with a B in tractor R&D; I said millions. Off by an order of magnitude.

 

[AKfish]

Easier for you to go to haytalk and newagtalk. The links at HayTalk were @ cnet and krvn - Ag station in Nebraska.

You'll have to go back 10-12 pages on newagtalk to find the discussion (could be more - I did not search- just been reading as I went). HayTalk (2) discussions are right there in the tractor section.

Enjoy... Oh yeah, the cnet link has 65 comments! Should keep gasoline and matches away from most of those folk's!

 

[Wagtail]

...
As to the R&D costs, I will have you the answer on the avg tuner development for a single vehicle release soon. I'm a member of SEMA and they have research on these topics. Ill bet you a virtual beer that its over a million on average. As to JD research I was way off: Last year they spent over a BILLION with a B in tractor R&D; I said millions. Off by an order of magnitude.

I recall watching a TV show "Megafactories" that featured the JD combine factory. A massive endeavour in building & assembling one, but it was the R&D area that was truly amazing! The amount of research, programming, integration and preventive 'fault finding' was absolutely staggering... and they (JD) are constantly fine tuning the process for a better product. I can easily see over a Billion $s being spent, especially when this technology trickles down to the CUT and SCUT ranges.

Then there are the implements that need to integrate with the tractor's on-board computer. Another implement manufacturer's product needs to be able to 'talk' to the JD system = even more R&D by JD 'cause they're not going to just give their expensive investment coding away.

 

[TheMadOne]

I recall watching a TV show "Megafactories" that featured the JD combine factory. A massive endeavour in building & assembling one, but it was the R&D area that was truly amazing! The amount of research, programming, integration and preventive 'fault finding' was absolutely staggering... and they (JD) are constantly fine tuning the process for a better product. I can easily see over a Billion $s being spent, especially when this technology trickles down to the CUT and SCUT ranges.

Then there are the implements that need to integrate with the tractor's on-board computer. Another implement manufacturer's product needs to be able to 'talk' to the JD system = even more R&D by JD 'cause they're not going to just give their expensive investment coding away.

That's the truth. Greenstar is a royal pain sometimes because it's all locked to JD. They literally use the same off-the-shelf parts as Raven or Ag Leader, but the coding is all JD's. Makes trying to integrate a third party implement a bit of a hassle without a skilled Precision Ag tech at the dealership.

 

[MORRISONSTEEL]

That's the truth. Greenstar is a royal pain sometimes because it's all locked to JD. They literally use the same off-the-shelf parts as Raven or Ag Leader, but the coding is all JD's. Makes trying to integrate a third party implement a bit of a hassle without a skilled Precision Ag tech at the dealership.

And that right there is one of the reasons why there are fewer and fewer mom and pop dealers. To sell high end satellite controlled machine of any color you really need a very large pool of people and knowledge to stay up on a constantly changing and complicated industry. Side note, I guess I don't know the extent but isn't there already a fair amount of compatibility between Deere and Raven?

 

[TheMadOne]

And that right there is one of the reasons why there are fewer and fewer mom and pop dealers. To sell high end satellite controlled machine of any color you really need a very large pool of people and knowledge to stay up on a constantly changing and complicated industry. Side note, I guess I don't know the extent but isn't there already a fair amount of compatibility between Deere and Raven?

I'm no expert, but I do know that the Greenstar monitors can work with Raven encoders and valves. Not sure about the other way around. Also not sure what it takes to make everything talk together. I think everyone uses "Brand" electric valves, anyway.(That's the name of the company, brand hydraulics) I'm not 100% on them being the exact same valves, though.

 

[adventure bob]

What this industry needs is a common standard when it comes to nav and implement integration. I realize that there's money in it as the technology expands, but just like quick attach (thanks bob cat), over time the groups that form an alliance, publish a std and then make implements and nav using that std, will make more money in total than all these disparate, brand specific stds. Problem with JD is that they have such a huge market share that getting a std in place without them is going to be near impossible.

 

[MORRISONSTEEL]

What this industry needs is a common standard when it comes to nav and implement integration. I realize that there's money in it as the technology expands, but just like quick attach (thanks bob cat), over time the groups that form an alliance, publish a std and then make implements and nav using that std, will make more money in total than all these disparate, brand specific stds. Problem with JD is that they have such a huge market share that getting a std in place without them is going to be near impossible.

Thanks to bob cat.... like their can bus system that they use with their multi valve ss implements? Maybe it changed but I have seen similar issues when attempting to put a bobcat ss implement on a different brand of ss, they don't communicate. Last instance we just jerked all of the bobcat wiring and controller off of the imp and installed a fasse system to make it work.

 

[MORRISONSTEEL]

I'm no expert, but I do know that the Greenstar monitors can work with Raven encoders and valves. Not sure about the other way around. Also not sure what it takes to make everything talk together. I think everyone uses "Brand" electric valves, anyway.(That's the name of the company, brand hydraulics) I'm not 100% on them being the exact same valves, though.

It essentially take's a full blown expert to make everything to talk. Even if you eliminate the branding question you need people intimately familiar with the machines and operating systems just to keep units that where designed 5-10 years apart to continue to communicate with each other. And this is just for machines and controllers all made by the same oem (any color). The changes are constant and never ending (so it seems). All in all this is really just a big math question.... "is my operation more profitable with these highly complicated systems that I do not necc have the ability to work on myself".

 

[adventure bob]

morrison, that's why a std is badly needed...

 

[Plantation Paul]

On my touch screen I can pull up diagnostics, both on the nav systems and tractor systems. I can also delete codes (the hard codes will come back). But I can't tell what these codes mean. The tractor has gone into limp mode a few times (restricted high gear operation, went from 27 mph transport to around 14 making taking it to to the dealership counter productive). I was lucky and the JD shop was busy as he!! (planting season) and I was in a BIND trying to get my crop in (you have this window called "weather"). I gave the shop manager the code, he ran it though his computer and it was a hydraulic sensor. So parts gave me a new one and they let me install it in the field. This happened three times in the first 300 hrs and I did the same each time. Needless to say I was very appreciative to the shop foreman for letting me do it myself saving 3 service calls. Even though I would have raised holy he!! if he had not at this extremely critical time.

Now that it is out of warranty, I would like to have a program/laptop I could plug in to check it out and modify. Right now it is giving me an electronic fault: "wheel speed sensors are mismatched".

Another thing, one of my tractors is an 8310R. The 8335R is the same tractor with the same engine from what the mechanics tell me. It would have cost me several thousand more to get that extra 20 hp programing. It would be nice, since it is out of warranty, to be able to "turn it up".