tractor hacking - JD's

[Texasmark]

Because car manufacturers outsource their/those parts to smaller independent suppliers, therefore they're available for purchase on their own. You can buy OEM or direct from the supplier. (my 4105 has a YANMAR donk... I can buy JD badged filters or locally stocked equivalent from an auto-parts shop)

According to your avatar list, you've got a fine collection of tractors... have you ever required a computer diagnostic programme/equipment to adjust or tweak your rigs?

Got what you wanted. I LMAO, twice.

 

[ericm979]

Well stated post adventure bob. I've not seen any of this kerfuffle reported here in Australia, New Zealand, Europe... Indeed, anywhere else in the world (including Canada).

That's because DMCA is a USA law. Deere is only doing this in the USA.

 

[vsteel]

Devils Advocate time ...

They recoup the costs on the sale price. Or they can software license it and say if you want all of the bells and whistles you have to pay but not lock you out of repairs. Just think if GM did this and you could only go to their dealers for repairs and no one else could work on their cars. "oh your air filter is dirty, yea, we can get you in next week and it will cost you $200. Do it yourself, lol, you are not allowed to open the hood or the car goes into limp mode." There is a reason that by law you have to be able to read the codes from your car. You don't get full access but you do get some repair diagnostics. With your tractor you don't get that, if they opened up the repair codes and would allow repairs 90% of this goes away.

 

[mrmikey]

....meant you had to start an apple account etc. way too much BS!

Agree, I bought an Apple (not sure of the name) streeming device that I could play my videos from my computer thru my dumb TV, I had to set up an apple account in order for it to work. Didn't happen, took it off, reboxed it and sent it back.............Mike

 

[Wagtail]

That's because DMCA is a USA law. Deere is only doing this in the USA.

Because Deere is the only US company; everyone else is foreign (Home Office).

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Speaking of US laws, compliance with those laws and the US Government enforcing these laws through their various Agencies [I'm thinking the EPA in this case]... Tier 4 could well be a motive.

 

[Wagtail]

They recoup the costs on the sale price. Or they can software license it and say if you want all of the bells and whistles you have to pay but not lock you out of repairs. Just think if GM did this and you could only go to their dealers for repairs and no one else could work on their cars. "oh your air filter is dirty, yea, we can get you in next week and it will cost you $200. Do it yourself, lol, you are not allowed to open the hood or the car goes into limp mode." There is a reason that by law you have to be able to read the codes from your car. You don't get full access but you do get some repair diagnostics. With your tractor you don't get that, if they opened up the repair codes and would allow repairs 90% of this goes away.

Hang on Mate, you're comparing 'apples to oranges' here. Changing an oil filter is not the same as changing a tractor's computer operating code.

Mechanically, you can do all of the routine maintenance, fluid/filter changes and part(s) replacement you want. If you want, JD will sell you the equipment + training to access and diagnose the computer. Just as they have sold and licenced their dealership workshops and Authorised Service providers.

There's nothing preventing a local diesel/tractor mechanic from becoming an Authorised JD/Kubota/Case IH/etc... Service Provider.

Just as there's nothing preventing a local vehicle mechanic from becoming an Authorised GMC/Ford/Toyota/etc... Service Provider.

When it comes to tractors, the SCUTs, CUTs and lawn tractors that we (generally) have, here on TBN, are not that 'computer controlled'. But the Big Boy Ag tractors, combines and speciality implements = an incredible amount of computer integration AND control; including fly-by-wire operation, GPS self driving and who knows what else. Do you want access to muck around with those computers?

Look, I don't work for JD and I don't hold any stock in the company. Sure, I've got four year old JD tractors with the computing power to run a digital hour meter. :laughing: I also don't have a 'dog in the fight' 'cause this seems to be a problem in the USA only.

I do think that it has to do with either JD having to cover their legal arse from the 'sue-happy' environment that the US seems to be OR that the EPA has leaned on them (JD) to prevent people from circumventing Tier 4 compliance (think 'constant regen').

It's a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[adventure bob]

You're absolutely right they recoup the cost on sales price. However they're not recouping millions in a single year to pay off the development. The company is essentially loaning their development arm the millions to go develop the technology. They wont recoup that cost in any short amount of time so JD protects the crap out of tech over the payoff period. My bet is that the payoff is 5-7 years, pure and simply business math. And you can do your own maintenance on commercial AG JD. To say you cant change an air filter is strictly asinine, same thing with fluids and other maint. However, in most commercial ag, they have contracts with field service companies that work when the tractors aren't. They do everything from maint to repair.

 

[adventure bob]

Also you can read your tractors data, you just have to pony up for a scanner that will do it. There aren't many $25 scanners that will talk to your tractor though. However my auto OBD2/CANBUS scanner will talk to any car. Oh yeah that's because they have a standardized maint bus across all brands thanks to the EPA forcing a standard. Tractors are still VERY proprietary. They have started using OBD/CANBUS to meet EPA reporting requirements, but they still utilize the "local code" functions heavily and most of their integration electronics are proprietary. Folks need to watch more RFD TV and less alarmist mainstream media. Lots of shows that talk about the technology of the farm to include the tractors.

 

[MHarryE]

I can't believe a farmer would want to tweak the code. There are millions of lines of code in New large at tractors and one misplaced bit turns your working tractor into a boat anchor. Witness the Boeing 787 - with all of its development, they discovered that if they leave the airplane powered up for some length of time it reboots. Now the time happens to be a long time but imagine being over an ocean and your airplane shuts down for a half hour reboot.

Before retiring, the 2 most popular machines I supported used the same engine with different software flashed into the ECM. Difference was 25 HP. Flash the wrong software into the lighter machine and trash the drive axle rather quickly if run at max power. Life over 10,000 hours with standard power. So should Deere stand the warranty if a person somehow learns to tweak his engine? Or tweak shift points. Or modify the torque curve and rip out the engine bottom end?

In developing software, I flashed new software into a machine one evening before leaving for Europe. The next morning when I arrived at work to pick up my stuff before heading to the airport, my right hand man told me we needed to visit our proving grounds on my way to the airport. There we found lots of engine pieces lying on the ground - pieces of the broken block, rod cap, etc. Turns out the test driver on the machine I had updated made it 90 minutes before it blew. Back at the engine plant they checked the software and found a major whoops. Now imagine thousands of tractor oners playing with the software with capabilities you can't imagine.

 

[AKfish]

During the past several decades of computer development and software progression has there not been previous situations like this?

Propriety hardware designs.... Software keys... Dozens maybe more efforts by corporations around the world to maintain some measure of competitive advantage or dominant market position.

Good luck - John Deere... You're gonna need it! You too, Fendt and Lamborghini.

The courts will chip away at areas where the corporate dictates unfairly infringes upon ownership rights. And where other manufacturers can reverse engineer and dissect competitors operating software - they will - maybe with the help of 3rd party hackers in the Ukraine!

This is just the latest front in the hardware-software wars.

 

[Wagtail]

That's another laughable part of this "article".

An owner of a US$90,000+* tractor(s)is going to entrust his/her investment/livelihood to an untested or verified, off the internet, hacked programme?

C'mon, pull the other one Mate!**


* and that's on the conservative side.

** Aussie-ism for "unbelievable!"

 

[AKfish]

That's another laughable part of this "article".

An owner of a US$90,000+* tractor(s)is going to entrust his/her investment/livelihood to an untested or verified, off the internet, hacked programme?

C'mon, pull the other one Mate!**


* and that's on the conservative side.

** Aussie-ism for "unbelievable!"

VICE news is a leading edge news organization affiliated with HBO. You might be familiar with them... Maybe not. Nonetheless, they have been granted interviews with leaders across the globe on topics that other major news organizations are either frightened of the inherent danger or intimidated by the vested economic interests of the global corporate powers.

As others have indicated this is a simmering issue that many are challenging above the radar as well as below the line of sight. Simply because it has not affected you directly, does not make this issue any less valid...

I have invested hundreds of dollars for EACH of the John Deere tractors that I currently own. Parts manuals, Technical Repair Manuals as well as CD versions. When you factor in JD balers, mowers, tedders, rakes, etc., the economic hurdle gets only higher.

As you move up in tractor size and cost; the complexity and expense of the diagnostic equipment increases exponentially!

Many owners only want to know what the code means! The majority of the diagnostic codes are NOT in the Owner's Manual! Is the problem just a bad switch or a small relay or faulty sensor...? Do I have to haul the tractor to the dealer? And wait... Or do I wait for the tech to show up and then wait again for him to come back 'cause he needs such and such?

Or I could replace the sensor myself...

And do you really believe that the farmer's elsewhere in the world are really, really just fine with Mama Deere and AGCO and Lamborghini holding all the controls to their livelihoods?

I might withhold my judgement on that question...

 

[Wagtail]

AK Mate, I've never really heard of these VICE people before. If they can get the 'big' interviews then, as I've said before, why the silence from all of the other big tractor manufacturers? It just doesn't pass the "smell test" with me. Something's missing... or I've got far too much time on my hands <as I adjust my aluminium-foil hat to the side for a more jaunty look>

I understand wanting to know about the codes and what they mean. There are enough threads here from people asking just that; and they're not just JD owners.

As to the rest of the world? I honestly haven't seen it. The really big Ag tractors/combines/related equipment/implements are getting so advanced that they're beginning to resemble large aircraft in their sophistication; now that technology is trickling down to where it's showing up in the CUTs & SCUTs.

[Note: I realise the next thing I'll write is 'in the extreme'] If you own/fly a 787 Dreamliner and you have a computer indicated problem/fault, wouldn't you call Boeing instead of mucking around with it yourself?

 

[adventure bob]

First Vice isn't affiliated with HBO, they're owned by HBO. While they purport to be cutting edge they are still big media. While I appreciate their liberal stance and some actual reporting, its still slanted and controlled by their corporate owners, Just because they do stories on weed, doesn't make them cutting edge.
Big ag farmers don't give a rats what the code means as long as the tractor is meeting its expected cost per acre. When you have 5-10 tractors in the $100-$200K your not doing the maint; you either have a maint facility in house or you contract it out. Again, if you want real coverage of real farming issues, watch more RFD TV and some Machinery Pete as opposed to a mainstream media. Its all about cost per acre. What the software is doing is irrelevant, as long as its doing what they paid for it to do.

 

[AKfish]

First Vice isn't affiliated with HBO, they're owned by HBO. While they purport to be cutting edge they are still big media. While I appreciate their liberal stance and some actual reporting, its still slanted and controlled by their corporate owners, Just because they do stories on weed, doesn't make them cutting edge.
Big ag farmers don't give a rats what the code means as long as the tractor is meeting its expected cost per acre. When you have 5-10 tractors in the $100-$200K your not doing the maint; you either have a maint facility in house or you contract it out. Again, if you want real coverage of real farming issues, watch more RFD TV and some Machinery Pete as opposed to a mainstream media. Its all about cost per acre. What the software is doing is irrelevant, as long as its doing what they paid for it to do.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.... We all have one. I have watched RFD-TV for years. As well as Machinery Pete - he posts regularly on Agtalk.

I have yet to see any RFD-TV correspondents in Syria or Siberia or Somalia or even Fairbanks. VICE has been there. I must have missed the RFD-TV crew.. (And, I haven't seen correspondents from the major networks in most of the places that VICE covers across the globe. Dangerous, horrible places and horrendous problems!)

I will grant you that the very biggest operators are not overly concerned (at least for now..) about the software/firmware court cases. But, even their time may yet come...

It's the smaller, (emerging - trying to expand) and mid-sized operators that are most affected. Those folk's aren't short-term lease operator's. They purchase to own; and begin to chafe under the software leash that the manufacturers have in place.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I like the "I was going to buy a Mercedes and they are the closest dealer, but because of this proprietary firmware and software nonsense, I bought a Hyundai (sp?) instead" . Like money was never a factor.

 

[vsteel]

You're absolutely right they recoup the cost on sales price. However they're not recouping millions in a single year to pay off the development. The company is essentially loaning their development arm the millions to go develop the technology. They wont recoup that cost in any short amount of time so JD protects the crap out of tech over the payoff period. My bet is that the payoff is 5-7 years, pure and simply business math. And you can do your own maintenance on commercial AG JD. To say you cant change an air filter is strictly asinine, same thing with fluids and other maint. However, in most commercial ag, they have contracts with field service companies that work when the tractors aren't. They do everything from maint to repair.

They know the development cost with the price of the tractor before they even start the project. There are 1000s of hours of this kind of planning before they even start, not to mention the code they create I would guarantee that it is modular so they are not making code for an individual tractor or very little. They have a ROI (return on investment) on the entire project and each piece of the project with projected sales and life of the product.

I wasn't saying that you can't change your own air filter, I was trying to give an analogy that would cause the general public to be enraged. I wasn't saying that that you can't do it today. Though if a major car manufacturer thought they could get away with it they would do it.

Sure you can do maintenance on your machine, my family has one of those 120 hp machines with a brain. They throw a code and you have to have the dealer come and tell you what it is. Can you buy a code reader, sure you could get one if you want to really lay out bank because they want to control who can work on the machines, IF they will sell it do you. They want to keep the people who can work on the machine down so they can reward the people who carry inventory.

Don't forget that sure you can fix something yourself but then there are a lot of cases where you have to clear codes or do resets or calibrations that you HAVE to have the code reader for. I know when we do repairs this is something we run into and you get stuck without a code reader. The farmers are not trying to redo the engine emission code, they want to be able to fix their machines. Having the ability for farmers to read codes and reset item and do calibrations is trivial and still have the emissions code and secrete sauce locked down. Trivial.

Let's not pretend that they are doing this because they want to help the EPA, that is the banner they hide behind. They are doing it for pure greed. The more they can get you in the dealer the better it is for the company, not only does it funnel money back to them but they also get you in front of new machines and they can try and sell you the better machine when you are getting yours repaired.

 

[AKfish]

They know the development cost with the price of the tractor before they even start the project. There are 1000s of hours of this kind of planning before they even start, not to mention the code they create I would guarantee that it is modular so they are not making code for an individual tractor or very little. They have a ROI (return on investment) on the entire project and each piece of the project with projected sales and life of the product.

I wasn't saying that you can't change your own air filter, I was trying to give an analogy that would cause the general public to be enraged. I wasn't saying that that you can't do it today. Though if a major car manufacturer thought they could get away with it they would do it.

Sure you can do maintenance on your machine, my family has one of those 120 hp machines with a brain. They throw a code and you have to have the dealer come and tell you what it is. Can you buy a code reader, sure you could get one if you want to really lay out bank because they want to control who can work on the machines, IF they will sell it do you. They want to keep the people who can work on the machine down so they can reward the people who carry inventory.

Don't forget that sure you can fix something yourself but then there are a lot of cases where you have to clear codes or do resets or calibrations that you HAVE to have the code reader for. I know when we do repairs this is something we run into and you get stuck without a code reader. The farmers are not trying to redo the engine emission code, they want to be able to fix their machines. Having the ability for farmers to read codes and reset item and do calibrations is trivial and still have the emissions code and secrete sauce locked down. Trivial.

Let's not pretend that they are doing this because they want to help the EPA, that is the banner they hide behind. They are doing it for pure greed. The more they can get you in the dealer the better it is for the company, not only does it funnel money back to them but they also get you in front of new machines and they can try and sell you the better machine when you are getting yours repaired.

Amen... X2.

 

[adventure bob]

I'm confused that your concerned about a business making money. This is a free country and folks can choose to buy something else and move on. However, if this was such a gigantic deal, Deere would be scrambling due to the loss of business revenue. Their shareholders report doesn't reflect what this thread seems to argue: people don't want the tech in their tractors. Their sales of tech laden tractors just don't reflect that concern.

As to the introduction of "Vice" and their global reporting, Um hows that relevant? Syria? Iraq? If they were there covering the ag industry I'd be all about it, but they're there covering social issues. The only ag they cover is the weed industry. RFD TV is relevant because they cover the state of Ag in the US, where according to this thread, everyone is against the tech in tractors. RFD TV covers these issues and its not a big deal in the ag world, so why is it a big deal to mainstream media?

 

[AKfish]

I'm confused that your concerned about a business making money. This is a free country and folks can choose to buy something else and move on. However, if this was such a gigantic deal, Deere would be scrambling due to the loss of business revenue. Their shareholders report doesn't reflect what this thread seems to argue: people don't want the tech in their tractors. Their sales just don't reflect that concern.

Time will tell...eh? If you don't think Deere and other's are directing a very significant focus on the Nebraska court case (and 6 other states) you're not paying attention...

People want the technology, that's not the issue - (as I'm certain you understand). It is a question of "control" and what you can or cannot do with property that you own!