Tractor starting issues

[whynot162]

I have a Rino 324. Love the tractor. About a year ago it developed a starting issue in the cold and snow. So I used a little starting fluid on it, an have had to since then. I know it is not preferred. but I needed the tractor to move snow. I then replaced the injectors.
it has gotten slowly harder to start, then developed a leak in the head gasket leaking water into the cyl.
So I have just replaced the head gasket. And things looked ok in the Cyl. But it is still hard to start.
When you start it you have to keep feeding it starting fluid little by little until it will finally run on it's own. It takes a while, like there is not enough fuel or something. I do not get air when cracking the fitting at the injector, just fuel.
I have no way to do a compression test, I also get no fuel through the return hose from the injectors. I do get white smoke.
I am starting to wonder if there is a bigger issue, maybe in the injection pump?
Any ideas or advice?
thanks

 

[whynot162]

The tractor runs great after it is started and up and running. And will restart if tried immediately, but even after 5 min, it is more difficult to start.

Seems like it is loosing pressure. and has to build it back up. But what would cause that?

 

[Bob Rooks]

I have a Rino 324. Love the tractor. About a year ago it developed a starting issue in the cold and snow. So I used a little starting fluid on it, an have had to since then. I know it is not preferred. but I needed the tractor to move snow. I then replaced the injectors.
it has gotten slowly harder to start, then developed a leak in the head gasket leaking water into the cyl.
So I have just replaced the head gasket. And things looked ok in the Cyl. But it is still hard to start.
When you start it you have to keep feeding it starting fluid little by little until it will finally run on it's own. It takes a while, like there is not enough fuel or something. I do not get air when cracking the fitting at the injector, just fuel.
I have no way to do a compression test, I also get no fuel through the return hose from the injectors. I do get white smoke.
I am starting to wonder if there is a bigger issue, maybe in the injection pump?
Any ideas or advice?
thanks

The "return line" from the injectors is just a leak off line so don't expect to get a lot of fuel, if any, from there. The real return line comes from the fuel injection pump.

White smoke is unburned fuel, possibly from dribbling injectors, which could also partially account for the hard starting and loss of power. Suggest you take the injectors to a diesel shop and have them pop tested.
Other things to check:

1) Air filter element.
2) Fuel sediment bowl strainer.
3) Fuel tank strainer (if equipped, you have to remove the sediment bowl assembly to check).
4) Banjo bolt strainer on the suction side of the lift pump.

You also share the symptoms of the early stages of diesel bugs.

 

[whynot162]

What are diesel bugs? Sounds like you are thinking a restricted filter or air leak?
And it does not blow white smoke when running, only when trying to start.

 

[Bob Rooks]

What are diesel bugs? Sounds like you are thinking a restricted filter or air leak?
And it does not blow white smoke when running, only when trying to start.

Okay, then remove the air filter from the list. now I'm just thinking bad injectors and restricted filters and screens (also possibly internally collapsed flexible fuel lines).

You've never heard of diesel bugs before? There are volumes written on the subject. Begin here: https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+bugs&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGIC_en

 

[whynot162]

thanks for the help so far,
I did replace the injectors about 1 year ago so I think they are ok.

If the fuel was restricted, why does it run good, and just have a starting issue? I do not doubt you, just trying to understand what is going on and why.

Thank you for the help

 

[greg_g]

But it is still hard to start.
When you start it you have to keep feeding it starting fluid little by little until it will finally run on it's own. It takes a while, like there is not enough fuel or something.

Sounds like either the pre-heater isn't working, or you're not using it to its advantage. What type is on your engine? Glow plugs or manifold heater?

//greg//

 

[whynot162]

it is a glow plug type thing in the manifold. fed by electricity, and fuel from the top of the injectors, and there is no fuel there. and it has never worked.

 

[RonMar]

Moving snow probably dosn't use much of the engines full capacity. It takes more fuel to start a cold engine, than it does to keep a warm one running. Since that throttle is actually a speed control, the ammount of fuel being delivered is being determined by the governor, so you have no idea exactly how much is being sent to the injectors. Only way to determine fuel flow capacity accuratly would be to hook the tractor up to a dyno and place it under full load to see if it is actually getting enough fuel to make full power. In my experience, white smoke on a cold diesel during startup indicates too little fuel. It is trying to ignite the fuel, but there just isn't enough being delivered to really do anything but make smoke. I get this from my hand crank slow speed diesel when I havn't properly bled the high pressure line to the injector.

I think you probably have a fuel restriction before the IP. I would go thru the complete fuel system, starting with the screen strainer up in the fuel tank, and ending at the injector pump. That includes completely draining the tank and de-installing the fuel petcock to insure if it has a screen up in the tank, you are cleaning it. take apart every fitting as these beasts have some unusual locations for screens Insure that fuel flows easilly thru all the hoses and fittings as a hose may have broken down internally and is not passing fuel freely. Typical plumbing has the fuel leaving the tank thru a petcock/strainer/glass bowl, to the IP lift pump(look for strainer there), to the fuel filter, and back to the IP(again look for strainer at this fitting).

If you were restricting fuel before the IP, the governor calling for full fuel at startup due to low RPM cannot deliver what it is commanding.

 

[TTTTTT]

Interesting, for cold starting for my DF, the manual even says to open the manual throttle from 1/3 to 1/2 when cranking. (after doing preheat) when cranking. I do notice a big difference when starting in colder weather this way. So the point of not getting enough fuel on startup makes sense. Of course as well the viscosity of diesel even with conditioners is thicker when colder making for harder starts.

Dave

 

[greg_g]

it is a glow plug type thing in the manifold. fed by electricity, and fuel from the top of the injectors, and there is no fuel there. and it has never worked.

Thought so. Get that fixed, and your hard starting problems (and most of the white smoke) will be a thing of the past. Had to do that with my Yanmar a few years back, and was pleasantly surprised what an inexpensive fix it turned out too be.

Plus, you won't have to use the starting fluid anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to your premature head gasket failure. If you've got any left though, it does a good job on cleaning old bar oil and sawdust out of chain saws.

//greg//

 

[whynot162]

I fixed it electrically, but I get no fuel out of the top of the injectors, So there is no fuel in there to preheat.
Is this all related? On my old 7.3 there was always fuel out of the fuel return.


The screen in the tank is clean, and I have to order a fuel filter, and will not get it until the end of the month. I replaced the o-ring in there with a normal o-ring, and I guess it is supposed to be a flat side for the canister to seal to, would that cause this issue? I am also going to replace all of the crush washers in the system. but the fuel is flowing clear and quick at the inlet to the lift pump, and there is nothing on the screen in the tank, or the float bowl.

 

[Bob Rooks]

I fixed it electrically, but I get no fuel out of the top of the injectors, So there is no fuel in there to preheat.

I just isn't plumbed correctly from the factory (it requires a small fuel reservoir and a solenoid valve). These are NOT unit type injectors so you won't get any fuel flow there, only leak off (that is until the pintle spring breaks and then only a few cc's at a time).

 

[whynot162]

ok, Is there a how to somewhere to set this up? It would be nice to have it work, and aid in the start.

 

[Bob Rooks]

ok, Is there a how to somewhere to set this up? It would be nice to have it work, and aid in the start.

Apparently the factory installation is incomplete, I can't help you there. Is there a solenoid valve attached to a small fuel reservoir above the level of the intake manifold?
A picture of your setup would be very helpful.

 

[whynot162]

I will try and get a photo,
But there is no valve or bowl, and the fuel line is connected to the top of the injectors, Nothing like you are talking about.

 

[greg_g]

I fixed it electrically, but I get no fuel out of the top of the injectors, So there is no fuel in there to preheat.

You typed "injectors" (plural). Please clarify. I ask, because a typical manifold heater has only one. And there are two types; my Yanmar had the little fuel bowl like Bob described. It relied upon gravity and intake vacuum to deliver fuel to a single manifold heat plug (as opposed to multiple cylinder glow plugs), and I had to fill it periodically by hand. The return line type also relies upon gravity, but not quite in the same way.

Your pump delivers fuel to the cylinders under high pressure, hence the steel lines. But what's delivered is more fuel than the cylinder needs for a single detonation. What's left after the individual injectors take what they need back to the fuel tank via those low pressure lines. So when the engine is running, fuel is always moving in a loop; low pressure to the pump, high pressure to the cylinders, low pressure back to the tank.

One of these low pressure lines is hooked up to the manifold heater plug. But note that it's not in the loop. Once it's full, fuel sits there waiting to be used when you need it for the cold start. You must manually activate the pre-heater either by keyswitch (HEAT position) or separate push button (keyswitch ON). This energizes the heat plug. Once it's hot enough, you turn the keyswitch to the START position. This creates intake vacuum, which in turn sucks fuel out of the return line and past the heater. It ignites, and pre-heats the air that is destined for the cylinders. The hot air mixes with the cold high pressure fuel, and - ideally - detonation occurs. The colder the ambient temperature, the longer you have to pre-heat. Occasionally it takes more than one pre-heat cycle.

Both manifold heaters and glow plug systems can also be re-energized while a cold engine is trying to get up to speed. Some systems call this "after-glow". When your engine has started - but is sputtering and not all cylinders have caught yet - turn the heater back on. Sucking more hot air into the cylinders helps cold cylinders catch up with those that are already detonating AND cuts down on the amount of white smoke that comes out the exhaust.

Oh yeah, and set your hand throttle at 50% or more prior to these cold starts. Once the engine catches, you can then decrease throttle as it warms up.

//greg//

 

[Bob Rooks]

Just to clarify:
These are NOT unit injectors that are found in these engines. There is no real return fuel from the top of them, they are common rail injectors that utilize a fuel injection pump. The return line comes from the fuel injection pump. Unit injectors do NOT have a separate fuel injection pump - it's built into the injector. These are unit injectors:
Unit Injector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why I stated the factory installation was incomplete.
I would contact Jinma and ask just how your system is supposed to work.

 

[whynot162]

mine sounds like it is set up like the 2nd one greg talks about, being fed from the fuel return from the top of the injectors, which there is no fuel there, due to the type of injector?

the tractor is a rhino, not a jinma, or are they the same thing? I have disconnected the wire to the preheat because after I got it to work electrically, it did not good, because there was no fuel, and it melted the fuel hose. So I decided better safe, since it did not work anyway. Even if not the same, the preheater should be similar enough to work?

the old 7.3 pre powerstroke, had retirn lines on them that always had fuel in them, and they were driven by a IP. that is what I was comparing it to.

Thanks again for the help, and I will get a photo on my next day off.

 

[greg_g]

I understand. Jinma uses individual glow plugs in swirl-chambers, one per cylinder. I used to own two of them. Your Rhino uses an intake manifold heater, one glow plug only. Just like my Yanmar.

That cheap Chinese rubber decomposes, the feed hose could have collapsed internally. Replace it with a section of good fuel line, prime the new line, reconnect the switch wire, try again.

//greg//