Tractors, Mini-TLBs, and Life

[HR_Mutt]

MChalkley
But can it pull a bat wing mower?
I do a lot of the stuff mentioned in thread however there's light at the end of the tunnel. Someday I'll just mow, plow snow, and deal w/ firewood. If the rental company ever has an EF on the lot, guarantee I'll find a project for it. In my opinion the 2 tractors already owned will last the rest of the time I'll need 'em/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
regards
Mutt

 

[ddl]

After reading this thread it is quite clear, everyone has an opinion and everyone thinks what they have is the best. But what is also clear is that what it takes to complete the task can be done by many different tractor models and still do it the best. What I finf interesting is that for the last couple of years that I have been reading this site, you have been professing the beneifits of the kubota tractor, now that you brought some thing else that no one heard of, you are wondering why everyone does not switch to your new model. The answer would be worth millions to each maker of tractor, why don't everyone switch to my tractor. Remember that just because you found a piece of equipment that you like, that does not mean we have to agree or jump to buy what you have. Tell us about you trator but don't tell us how we are wrong or closs minded if we don't agree. MHO

Dan L

 

[MarkV]

Dan, I don’t think MarkC is trying to convert everyone to the Earth Force as much as point out that there are other options. I know that when I bought my first tractor I had no idea how many different configurations were available. I didn’t even know how many brands were available./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

For me, one of the valuable things about the forum is learning about different equipment from those that are using it rather than selling it. As a result, I am a much better informed consumer when I purchase a new attachment or tractor now. Shoot, many times I am better informed than those selling them./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MarkV

 

[looch]

If I didn't know any better, it sounds like MarkC is trying to justify the purchase of the EF - maybe even secretly yearning for the versatility of the CUT he gave up./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Kidding! kidding! kidding!
Seriously though, why did you start this thread, MarkC? I've checked out the EarthForce web site. They look like really slick machines. I bought my CUT to do the regular stuff that everyone else mentions plus some very small scale farm stuff. I can think of a number of tasks that really do need to be done around my place that would be easier with an EF:

Put in French drains around my 100 year old house,
Clear a spot for the slab for the new dog kennel,
Excavate for a new septic system,
Clear out the drainage ditches in the field.

But after these tasks are done - they're done. I think a CUT is better suited (for me and my property anyway) for property maintenance. The EF (once again IMHO) is better suited for property modification.

 

[cowboydoc]

Dan,
I agree with what you said. I don't think Mark is purposely trying to make us switch to one it's something we all do. If I go out and buy xyz product and it's different and either more or less money we justify why we did something like that to validate our decisions. A mini-tlb is no different than a compact tractor compared when you compare the big tlb's and tractors. A tlb is a nice unit to have no doubt about that. But for most people it's not really an option. Like was already pointed out you can't use one for farming. You don't have a numerous amount of choice with regard to implement dealers, they are few and far between and much more expensive. You are stuck with the backhoe and loader on all the time. It's not like quick connect stuff that you can have it or not in 5 minutes. Probably 95% or better of the people on here are much better off with what they have. Cheap implements, ease of use, lots of local dealers, and plenty of good information out there on how to use these. No doubt it's a great machine but I don't think it's time is here to replace or even really compete on much of a level with the compact tractor. For one they are just too heavy for most of the guys out there to even think about running over your lawns. Yes they make smaller ones but they are still going to be much heavier comparably to a compact. Plus how many guys here even have a backhoe. I would venture, guess, to say that less than 10 or 15% of the guys on here with tractors even have a backhoe or for that matter would use one. I do probably about as much as most people on here and I can count the times on two hands I've needed mine since I bought it. Invaluable when I need it, yes, but not something you want back there to drag around day after day to use less than 10 times in 8 months. Great product, great machine, alot of uses. I just don't think it's time has come to compare to a compact tractor for the users here.

 

[MChalkley]

Dan - Clearly, I made some assumptions in my last post without even realizing I'd done so. The entire premise of my "Goodbye Kubota, Hello PowerTrac" and, subsequently, "Goodbye Kubota, Hello EarthForce" threads was based upon the knowledge and admission that I had been close-minded enough that it had prevented me from having a piece of equipment that would suit my needs far better because I hadn't really even looked.

Nobody but you can decide if you are or aren't open-minded, or even if you care whether you are or aren't. And I would never be so presumptuous as to think you should care whether I think you are or not. I certainly don't care whether you think I am. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif But I do care very much what I think of myself. It's called self-examination, not pride. I want to know I'm not stuck in a rut, not prejudiced for illogical reasons or no reason at all, not ignoring potential solutions because they aren't the way I've always done things or the way others do things.

As to switching sides, and advocating what I've got, what other choices are there? I'd be pretty dumb to have what I have because I don't like it, wouldn't I? Personally, if someone advocates A to me, and has only ever had A, I tend to put less credence in his endorsement than if he's owned A, B, and C, and wants to tell me how great C is. He's now in a position to know. Perhaps I also incorrectly assumed that everybody else views things from this perspective. (I also think this is embarking on a whole new discussion of what it means to be open-minded, too, but that's another story altogether.)

I've always considered myself pretty good at "thinking outside the box", as my engineer friend put it. So, I very much surprised myself by the degree to which I wasn't, in this case. I'm sorry if you took offense - my intent, as MarkV said, was to expose and educate, and to illustrate by my own example that we sometimes aren't as open-minded as we think we are. And that prevents us from learning.

 

[MChalkley]

Paul - I started this thread to get what's happening right now to happen. I wanted to hear what others do with their CUTs and what they think of mini-TLBs after really examining their capabilities. If nobody else buys one because of this thread, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is that the issues get explored, that we make the decisions we make with as many facts as possible available. If someone else had posted the message I posted to start this discussion (or perhaps my "Goodbye Kubota..." ones) two years ago, I'd have been way ahead of the game by now. Perhaps my experiences will benefit someone else in a similar fashion. Consider it a Public Service Announcement. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Fractal - I don't know too much about the second-hand mini-TLB market. I do know that the used ones I priced were almost as much as the new ones, so I guess that means it's pretty good.

As for implements, any implement that will fit on a skid steer will fit on the front end loader of an EarthForce. So, to answer your question: a bunch, and rapidly becoming more than are available for CUTs.

 

[looch]

I'm sorry if I sounded snide - that wasn't how I wanted to come accross. I have about as much experience with forum discussions as I do with operating a tractor (check my profile - it's not much).
A noble gesture, your Public Service Announcement. Just that some may take offence at the suggestion that until they read this thread they risk buying the wrong thing. I'm what some would calll an impulse buyer. I think of myself more as someone who sees a need and reacts to it. Even if it only took me a couple of weeks to reach my decision, it wasn't a hasty one. Believe me, I explored my options.

 

[MChalkley]

Mutt - No, I don't know of a bat-wing mower that's an option for a mini-TLB (skid steer). But it wouldn't surprise me to see one, because the best bush-hog I've ever seen is made for a skid steer. Plus, I'd a lot rather mow ahead of me that behind me so I can see better, and so I don't have to run over what I'm mowing with the tractor first.

 

[MChalkley]

Paul - No "snideness" at all detected by me!

And I can see where some might take that education thing the wrong way. I hadn't considered that. We all see things through our own windows. I see TBN as primarily an educational opportunity. Perhaps some view it as a nice way to chat with folks they already agree with. I might tend to torque the latter out of shape on a regular basis, because my assumption (yes, I've heard the saying), is that they wouldn't be on TBN if they didn't want to be exposed to new things. I can see where that may not be a valid assumption. But surely, those folks have by now learned not to read any of my posts, though, don't you think? /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[MChalkley]

Richard - You made some very good points. In fact, I don't think I disagree with anything you said. Except maybe the 95% statistic. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

None of the EarthForce machines currently available would be worth a plug nickel mowing lawns because, as you said, they're too heavy.

Your point about dragging the backhoe around all the time has some merit, but remember that it's not just a backhoe, it's an arm with a hydraulic PTO on it. You can use it to power an auger, a stump grinder, things like that. They're getting more and more versatile all the time, and they're already versatile enough to replace a compact tractor for me. Now, I'll admit, as Paul indicated, I'd rather have my L4310 and the EF-5 with me on every job, but it's not practical, so some compromises are necessary.

 

[MChalkley]

Mark - It sounds like we share more than a common first name. You seem to view TBN in almost exactly the same way as I do. I have learned huge amounts of information from TBN and continue to do so. Education is the only reason I continue to participate here. Chatting is nice, and I enjoy the banter quite a bit from time, and the good-natured ribbing (my EF-5 is still white, not pink, though - Harv still hasn't shown up with his electrostatic paint rig /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif), but education is why most of us are here, I think (though I've been corrected a few times before with regard to my assumptions about others - maybe this will be another one). At any rate, I'm sure of one thing: the "fun" notwithstanding, when I no longer learn anything here, and no one credits me with at least having exposed them to something they hadn't considered before, whether they feel they've learned something or not, I'm outta here. Or, at the least, very seldom seen.

 

[MikePA]

<font color=blue>Just that some may take offence at the suggestion that until they read this thread they risk buying the wrong thing.</font color=blue>

Perhaps it's the inability of the written word to accurately convey intent, but I did not take Mark's post to imply someone would be buying the wrong thing. Rather they might not be buying the best thing.

If all someone has owned, or has had experience with, are ag tractors or CUTs, then their frame of reference for potential solutions to a particular problem will be to solve it with an ag tractor or a CUT. This isn't right or wrong, it just is how most of us think.

Here at work, people are 'amazed' when they get a computer program written in the COBOL language when they go to a department staffed by people that only know COBOL. It doesn't matter what the program was needed for, from statistical analysis to payroll processing, they always get it written in COBOL, even though there are programming languages much better suited to statistical analysis, e.g., SAS, because that's the only programming language that department knows.

Kind of like the old adage, "If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

 

[looch]

<font color=blue>Perhaps it's the inability of the written word to accurately convey intent</font color=blue>

Couldn't have said it better (no - really, I couldn't)./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I see the "looks like a nail problem" quite frequently. I work in a sheet metal shop. When we were a much smaller operation and I was working in the plant, employees were responsible for providing their own tool boxes. Many chose to make their own using the available equipment.
-All the press-brake operators (metal benders) bent their boxes with as few individual components as possible.
-The welders cut individual panels and welded them together.
-The best looking boxes were made by those who used a combination of both methods.

When I wrote that some <font color=blue>may take offence</font color=blue>, may is what I meant. I come here to learn new things, as MarkC does. Just saying that some may not react too well when they're 10K$+ purchase decision is questioned. Same goes for the brand of beer a guy drinks, or the type of hunting dog he uses. Eggshells, you know what I mean?

Anyways, I'm dropping out of this now as MarkC has already clarified to me what the purpose of this thread is and I have already given the reason for my decision to purchase a CUT. No hard feelings anyone. By the way, I'm usually not this neurotic./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MikePA]

<font color=blue>-All the press-brake operators (metal benders) bent their boxes with as few individual components as possible.
-The welders cut individual panels and welded them together.
-The best looking boxes were made by those who used a combination of both methods.</font color=blue>

What great examples! It's nice to know that it's not only computer programmers that try and apply the only tool they have to every problem they come across. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Mark:
Right up front, I'd like to admit that many of my purchases have been wrong - generally too expensive, and generally not quite addressing my real needs. Like CowboyDoc, I suspect if I had a backhoe, its use would be seldom, but I really want one. The Earthforce would be great, but I'd seldom use it - so why do I still want it?
My actual use of machinery is at least 90% mowing. For lawns, we use an old Jacobsen Turf Cat II with 72" front mounted finish deck. It is far better than the MMM's we have worn out doing the same areas for a lot of years, on a B7100 Kubota and 755 JD, not to mention a Cub Cadet. Our only FEL is on a 2240 JD. We use it for bucket work, forks, and log moving, etc. because that's what we have. I have no doubt that an Earth Force would be better. For pasture mowing, we use a 950 JD with an old Woods 6' brush hog. Although nervous making on the steep areas, it has performed fine for decades. A batwing would be better. A batwing up front would be great, but wouldn't work on an Earthforce.
I'm still hoping to get a Power-Trac. The prices on the 1430 and 1845 just came down. They only have 1200 lb loader capacity, but they push a 6' mower, and probably can do both my lawn and pasture work, as well as the vast majority of the loader stuff. For that combination, they're better than the Earth Force. I still want a backhoe. Maybe I can adapt a 3 point hitch hoe to ride the front of the Power Trac - for those few times I need to avoid a shovel. (I am talking to Long about the plumbing needed to use the Power Trac hydraulic PTO to open and close a 4 in 1, with a toggle switch on the joystick, so I can lift, roll and open and close all at once. It may even work.)
This thread has stimulated a bit of brand loyalty, but has been fun. It has shown, however, that the Earth Force isn't quite the perfect machine yet. It isn't quite all things to all TBN members yet, so please continue your long strange quest.

 

[ddl]

The problem as I see it is that MarkC is confusing uses of a dirt moving machine and a compact tractor. Each has it uses. The dirt moving for movig dirt, it just happens to look like a tractor, the other used to mow, till and other farming(small farming that is) things. One is not better than the other, just different tasks to be accomplished. The thread really belongs in the construction equipment group. Which I read to learn more things then i know now.

Dan L

 

[MossRoad]

Please clarify for me...
CUT = compact utility tractor
TLB = ____ loader backhoe?

What else is there.

Would the PT425 be a mini TL with no B?

 

[Harv]

David -

Tractor Loader Backhoe

You might enjoy skimming through an old thread called, "<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=support&Number=27525&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post27525>Glossary Of Tractor Terms</A>".

I love word puzzles.