Tractors on hills

[kenlip]

I read extensively about saving drowning people. Watched movies, too. But until I got into the water with a 250 pound gorilla-man that was bent on showing me how a real drowning person behaves, I had no clue.

Do you think you were no better off having the 'theoretical' knowledge? Was all that reading and movie watching a total waste of time?

When they teach you to fly, they make you put the plane into situations that you have to recover from. You have to practice the failures to know how to deal with them.

Absolutely. But before they make you do that with the plane, they would have taught you some basic protocols such as the relationship between direction a take-ff and landing and wind direction.

When my mom and dad tought me to drive, they took me to a snow covered parking lot and did donuts and lose control of the car to see how it feels.

When I taught my girls to drive, one of the first things I did was take them to a snow covered parking lot and made them lose control of the car over and over again until they felt comfortable with how it feels, and what to do to recover.

That is exactly how driving should be taught. Instead, they put kids into a car with a parent as the teacher and get them onto the road. They have NO idea how to control a car, let alone how to handle traffic situations. It's insane!

Yes, its good to have that knowledge in the back of your head. And its good to know not to put yourself into those situations in the first place. If that's what you're trying to accomplish, good for you.

That is precisely what I am trying to do here.

However, knowing what you shouldn't have done a couple seconds ago, and having the skills to recover from it are priceless.

Those skills come with time. At time 'zero' one has no skills. All one can have is theoretical knowledge. The more knowledge (and common sense!) one can take to the first minutes, hours, days, weeks and months of tractor driving (or any other risky activity) the more chance one has of coming out unscathed.

 

[MossRoad]

Thanks, MossRoad

Mike, in The Danger of Tractors on Hills - YouTube says the opposite. He says (and shows) that, with the load at the front, one should go FORWARD UP and REVERSE DOWN.

I saw that article a few days ago. It refers often to a 'steep slope'. I wonder what they consider to be 'steep'


Ken

I sure heard him talk, but he didn't show anything at all. He stood there with a microphone and talked. No practical demonstration.

 

[kenlip]

There's no substitute for doing something and feeling the actions/reactions VS reading about it and hoping it never happens.

Yes and no. Experiencing certain things is great. However, I am happier to have learned about kickback on table-saws by reading and watching videos on the subject than I would be actually experiencing it. Hopefully, by knowing about and understanding the physics involved, I don't actually have to have a chunk of wood fly towards me at 100mph to appreciate the need to use push sticks, have a riving knife fitted to the saw, etc.

I think the reading about kickback (and taken appropriate precautions) is a great substitute for creating a kickback situation and feeling the actions/reactions of the phenomenon.

Same principle for chainsaw kickback. Better to understand the physics involved than 'feeling the action' and testing one's reflex time for dodging a sharp chain moving at 80 feet per second.

 

[amhicks21]

It seems to me that while a general set of guidelines may be somewhat useful to a very new operator, there are just too many circumstances and tractor configurations to account for. I've done lots of grading, mowing, planting trees, and moving material on steep slopes and the way i operate always just depends on what implements im using at the time. 4x4 engaged, FEL kept close to the ground and rops up really seem like the only constants.

 

[dragoneggs]

I appreciate you trying to establish protocols and can relate to your preamble efforts... but it is a learned profession with some very basic protocols that don't require a complicated (color coded) chart. I am a seasoned mechanical/aerospace engineer and just several years ago embarked on SCUT tractoring on an aggressive sloped property that deserved major landscaping.

Best advice I got was go low and slow. The FEL bucket is a workhorse but also can easily operate outside the tractor's ability to remain stable both in static and dynamic conditions... "thus the low and slow". As long as you abide by this creed, the only other protocol I have heeded was, 'pucker factor'. This sense of feeling is only achieved while getting seat time on a significant slope, whether it be going up/down or more scary, with a sideways component on rough terrain. If you don't quickly feel this sensation, you probably shouldn't be on a tractor.

Honestly, your chart seems to target lawyers, insurance folks, and Health/Safety/Environment professionals. In reality, there are a lot of variables your chart is not going to adequately address. Weight distribution (BH on/off), Dirt compaction, grip, 2WD vs. 4WD, trailering, and more.

My advice is to start out getting familiar with operation on flat ground and proceed to more challenging terrain as your skills increase. When you think you are proficient, I bet you will be operating 'low and slow' and minimizing your 'pucker factor'.

Think back when you learned to drive a car. How much confidence did you gain from the classroom instruction vs. the hands on action?

 

[dougtrr2]

From this:
National Ag Safety Database - National Ag Safety Database

"Try to avoid backing down slopes or driving forward up a steep slope. "

That means you should always BACK UP steep slopes, and drive FORWARD DOWN steep slopes.

That's the bottom line. It's the best way to lessen the chance of rear rollovers. It pretty much applies to everything, front or rear loads.

I find your charts confusing and in conflict with the above. If I am on a steep slope I want to be facing downhill regardless of whether I am going up or down and regardless of where my load is. If for what ever reason I break traction I want to be facing the direction of travel. I feel I would have a much better chance of recovery. Trying to maintain control going backwards down a slope makes me shudder to think about. Your intent is good, but I think you are complicating the very sound and safe principle stated above.

Doug in SW IA

 

[kenlip]

I find your charts confusing and in conflict with the above. If I am on a steep slope I want to be facing downhill regardless of whether I am going up or down and regardless of where my load is. If for what ever reason I break traction I want to be facing the direction of travel. I feel I would have a much better chance of recovery. Trying to maintain control going backwards down a slope makes me shudder to think about. Your intent is good, but I think you are complicating the very sound and safe principle stated above.

Doug in SW IA

That part of the chart was based on Mike's video. It seems that he is probably wrong, and that the biggest mistake he made was not having adequate ballast on the back of the tractor.

If that is correct, then I (and maybe others) have learnt something from this exercise.

Ken

 

[kenlip]

I was reading the 'Operational Tips for Newbies' thread, where the following posting was made

04-18-2009, 02:01 AM #18
LD1

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet but always try to go up/down hills with your load uphill.
Full fel bucket forward uphill, back down hill.

(Tractor Mike had the same theory).


In this thread, MossRoad posted "

Default Re: Tractors on hills
From this:
National Ag Safety Database - National Ag Safety Database
"Try to avoid backing down slopes or driving forward up a steep slope. "
That means you should always BACK UP steep slopes, and drive FORWARD DOWN steep slopes.
That's the bottom line. It's the best way to lessen the chance of rear rollovers. It pretty much applies to everything, front or rear loads.


and dougtrr2 wrote:
If I am on a steep slope I want to be facing downhill regardless of whether I am going up or down and regardless of where my load is. If for what ever reason I break traction I want to be facing the direction of travel. I feel I would have a much better chance of recovery. Trying to maintain control going backwards down a slope makes me shudder to think about.

Given what MossRoad and dougtrr2 wrote in this thread, I was surprised that in the 'Operational Tips for Newbies' thread, nobody challenged LD1's suggestion that contradicts the advice in this thread.

So, now I have seen totally conflicting opinions and I'm confused - any help in clarifying the situation would be greatly appreciated.

Could it be that the one theory relates more to 2WD tractors and the other to 4WD tractors?

Ken

 

[s219]

I will tell you this, when operating a forklift many decades ago, we were only allowed to reverse up hills and go forward down hills with an empty fork lift. This is due to the insane amount of rear ballast built in to the back of a forklift. With a load it depended on the weight, but most of our loads were light and we followed the same procedure.

You actually need to take wheel rotation into account. Decide which direction will make the machine want to pop a wheelie relative to the primary drive axle, and then also factor in weight and position of the load. I don't think there is a single right answer for any of this. As with many cases of machine operation and rigging, you need to be able to read and understand the physics in realtime. It's far better to be able to step back and analyze things in terms of basic physics for every unique situation.

 

[ericm979]

I back up steep hills and go forwards down them. Always with an implement on the back, and my tractor's got a loader and 4wd. I back up hill with the loader low, bucket almost on the ground (implement low too). If the tractor tries to flip over the loader bucket should stop it with the rear wheels only a few inches above the ground. You could even lower the bucket to put the rear wheels back on the ground. Where if I was going forwards the 3pt hitch does not have downward pressure. If the tractor flipped over the 3pt would run into it's stop, allowing the tractor quite a but of motion before it stops it from flipping over. With the front that high it might fall to one side.

Going down hill the same reasoning applies.

Keep in mind that the front axle is on a pivot. If the tractor does start to flip over forwards and the loader isn't low to catch it, it'll pivot to one side and may fall over. If I didn't have a loader I wouldn't go up backwards/down forwards. Also the brakes are only on the rear wheels. The tractor needs to be in 4wd to have braking on the front axle. With a 2wd tractor I'd back down (VERY carefully) instead of going forwards.

With 2wd or no loader I'd be much more conservative on hills.