travel pump

/ travel pump #41  
If it works, I'll have to copy it and bow repeatedly in the direction of East Tennessee, chanting "All Hail the Mighty Stray!!!"

But don't feel like there's any pressure here...! : /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
/ travel pump #42  
Stray,

If it were my $$$, I'd spend the least amount possible to test the hypothesis in this experiment. Then, if it worked, I'd figure out how to improve it with solenoids, etc.

I'm trying to mentally picture all the plumbing necessary to have a system "switchable" to work both ways, and am having severe brain cramps.... /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
/ travel pump #43  
Just a suggestion. It would be nice to reduce the power to a slipping wheel. Leaving it plumbed the way it is now, but put a valve and lines around each wheel motor (I know a lot of lines). The valves would normally be closed and then opened a little or a lot around a slipping wheel. This way all or most of the pressure and flow goes to the non slipping wheel. It seems to me that most of the wheel slippage is on the rear wheels, so maybe you only need to bypass the rear wheels.

Hum, I wonder if it would be easier to just put a larger engine in the PT.
Bob Rip
 
/ travel pump #44  
Thanks Guys. This is going to work but it will take two or three weeks to get it ready and see just how well it works. Gosh maybe someone else will have it ready for testing before I do. If so, good luck and more power to them. Its been hard on my brain too. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Does anyone have links to (12 volt solenoid Hydraulic valves)
 
/ travel pump #45  
Have you considered the fact that with the current 25 hp engine, you are probably pushing the limits of the engine to produce the gpm of fluid that you need to operate everything at the same time. Using a hydraulics calculator, I figure you can pump about 12 gpm max at 3000 psi. If you modify anything, such as a larger tram pump, you may have to go to a larger engine. You can get by with switching to larger wheel motors, and get more torque, but you suffer in top end speed.

I would think really hard on changing all those hyd hose to find out that it isn't as good as what you have now.

I believe that tram pump is in the $1000.00 range, and if you do go larger, you will have to upgrade the current engine which is about $2200.00 to a larger engine which cost even more.

It is very hard to modify a proven concept, and be cost effective, and with more advantages over the old system. What ever you, I applaud your efforts.
 
/ travel pump #46  
Stray:
I have a new 12 v. solenoid selector valve I was going to use for the curl functions on my minihoe. I decided to spend the extra$ and go with a 3 spool valve. If you go to www.surpluscenter.com the Item # is 9-1782 I paid $189.50 plus shipping. If you are interested in buying it send me a PM.
 
/ travel pump #47  
I will need two valves or one that acts like two. I think the drawing illustrates the valve. If I can’t find the first 2 position I have to settle on the second 3 position. I have found several of them. I hope I can find some way of doing this job for under $200 but I’m afraid it will cost a little more.

And Hey JJ, come on now have a little faith (LOL) but thanks for your advice and concern. The vales are so one can switch back and forth from the way it is now to the lower gear. I do agree with you that the tractor would be too slow to just leave it piped with all motors in parallel mode. If you get me too worried about doing this I could do like KentT said and repipe it just for a test.

With the right ends on the hoses and fittings one would only need 2 each tees and 2 each hoses. I know it may seem like you would need more but when you narrow it down it looks like that is what would be needed. As you know in the world of hydraulics there are many different kinds, types and sizes of fittings and hose ends.
 

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/ travel pump #48  
For more power can't we just install a NOX system like the kids do on their Hondas? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Phil
 
/ travel pump #49  
But that would only produce more power at the engine. Isn't the problem here: 1) the wheel motors, 2) the current hydraulic pump, 3) the engine?

I think JJ's point is that to do this properly you really need to consider replacing all three. Did anyone else notice the date on the diagram that JJ posted? 1998. I suppose that means there have been no design changes since other than upgrading the wheel motors on newer PT 425s. Does the 425 also come with a stronger hydro pump now?

Has anyone looked into what the biggest engine is that could be swapped into these tractors?
 
/ travel pump #50  
That was STRAY that posted that hyd schematic.
 
/ travel pump #51  
Use this formula to compute required HP for a hydraulic pump or a set of pumps.

Hp to drive hydraulic pump = Psi x GPM / 1714

I figure on my Pt-1445, that 45 hp will push a max of 24 gpm. 3 gpm/5.65 hp for the steering and lift, 12 gpm/22.6 hp for the PTO, and 9 gpm/16.95 for tram pump.

Has anyone considered putting twin 25 hp engines on a PT-425 and redesigning the cover. That's 50 hp an a PT425, and with larger wheel motors, you might achieve the torque you are looking for. Dixie Chopper did this on one of their machines, 50 hp on a 72 in cut on a zero turn mower. It is very fast and powerful.
 
/ travel pump #52  
JJ,

The only time the PT-425 uses all its available horsepower is when mowing thick, heavy stuff OR when climbing a steep hill with the mower running. With a normal tractor, you can usually gear down in those circumstances, but with a PT-425 you cannot. It only has the equivalent of a High speed range, with no Low speed range.

IMO, the problem is not nearly as much the lack of HP as it is simply lack of torque. I typically don't need a machne that'll go 10MPH, since I don't do any road tramming -- I'd much rather have one that goes 5 MPH and has twice the torque, as I've said before. Stray's idea of two separate, switchable speed ranges is the best of both worlds....
 
/ travel pump #53  
I will have to say that JJ’s fears are not unfounded. When the wheel motors are rerouted in the parallel mode and power is needed to climb a hill the hyd. Pressure will have to go higher to climb the hill.

JJ as I think you have stated your PT bypasses rather that stalls out. Is that right? Mine just stalls out if it is pushed to hard.

The last thing I want to do is to change my PT over to parallel mode, run it up against something solid just see how much it will push. I am after that amount of power to go on up a hill. Or say if one would be mowing up a hill in this new parallel mode this should let the mower have more power taken from what would have been for climbing. Mow right on up a hill where before the tractor either wouldn’t do it or wasn’t very efficient.

In the end weather one adds 50 hp to the tractor or rerouted in parallel mode the pressure to the wheel motors will have to go up to climb a steeper hill.
 
/ travel pump #54  
I belive that is the drawing I posted here. It got it in early 2000. There may be changes since then.

Bob Rip
 
/ travel pump #55  
1. Stray, as far as I can tell, the amount of pressure available will automatically double the way you'd be plumbing it. You'd be trading volume (speed) for pressure (torque). It may climb that hill slowly, but it would climb the hill... I am interested in how much the PT will push and pull -- for boxblade, bucket and blade work... I've had my PT with a VERY big load of brush/trees in the grapple bucket, raised slightly off the ground for transport, stall on a slope -- when the oil is VERY hot -- and had to waggle to get it over a hump of dirt. Traction was such that it would not spin a wheel, and if I tried to simply back up over it with treadle pressure, it would begin to bog the engine down, with the wheel motors whining loudly. This is after switching to 20W50 Amsoil also... Once I made it over that hump, it handled it fine. IMO, this is a "gearing problem" and not a lack of power.... I'd use the analogy of trying to take off with a manual transmission in 3rd or 4th gear. It may feel like there's no power -- but it is really a matter of the gearing, i.e. torque available, not HP...

2. As I understand it, in a parallel system, the pressure will still be there, doubled, as long as the engine doesn't bog down -- and it is pressure that creates torque, not volume of flow. Volume creates speed (i.e. RPM of the wheels). See point #4 below for more on the "bogging down" issue.

3. As I stated earlier, according to the performance charts for the wheel motors, as currently "plumbed" each of the wheel motors could receive a maximum potential of 8 GPM at 1500 PSI. That yields 2691 in lbs of torgue. This is assuming all engine power is being used to power the tram pump, which it obviously is not.

In a parallel circuit, the maximum potential is 4 GPM at 3000 PSI, which would yield 5395 in lbs of torque. Even if using of the PTO, consuming HP, cuts both the pressure and the volume in half , to 2GPM at 1500 PSI, you'd still get 2902 in lbs of torque... 8% more torque than the theoretical maximum (full pressure, full volume -- i.e. no PTO use) as currently plumbed.... That "worst case" is better than the "best case" as currently plumbed.

4. One bit of data from those performance charts that I haven't mentioned -- Stall Torque -- becomes relevant here also. Stall torque is the maximum amount of torque the motor can apply when it is not turning. White, the manufacturer, actually rates these wheel motors at 1 RPM -- not zero. Stall torque is what moves the tractor from a stopped position, such as climbing over the hump that I mentioned above. Stall torque is what's required to initially push or pull an object to get it moving. Insufficient stall torque is what "kills the engine" in this circumstance. See how that stall torque figure also goes up with increases in pressure in the circuit:

1000 PSI = 1722 in lbs torque
1500 PSI = 2573 in lbs torque
2000 PSI = 3275 in lbs torque
2500 PSI = 4081 in lbs torque
3000 PSI = 4740 in lbs torque

As currently plumbed, 2573 in lbs (at 1500 PSI) is the maximum potential torque available to start the tractor moving -- even if no engine power is being used for steering, PTO, or lift cylinders. With parallel circuits that increases to potentially 4740 in lbs (at 3000 PSI).

Note that Stall Torque has NO relationship to volume, since the starting point is theoreticaly zero fluid going through the system. So, essentially all the available engine power is available to produce pressure in the system -- however, as currently plumbed, only half that pressure can get to any individual wheel motor...

So, parallel circuits should significantly reduce the potential of stalling the engine when pushing or pulling something from a dead stop. It will significantly increase the potential for spinning a tire, however, since it should feel like it has twice the power when it first starts moving....

This experiment could be fun -- especially since it's Stray's $$$ /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
/ travel pump #56  
KentT:
I love threads about modifications and have watched this one with interest. I don't yet have a projection what will happen if a machine is converted to parrallel circuits. I do have to take issue with your observation that the PTs only have one speed. The variable pump in fact does act as a continuously variable transmission, and if you only press the pedal slightly, you have considerably more climbing ability, albeit slow, than if you floor the pedal. Heavy grass on an uphill slows my 1845 significantly, and I can stall it by flooring the pedal. If I press only slightly, however, it will creep up any slope I have until it runs out of traction.
But, keep exploring: we're all learning. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
/ travel pump #57  
Charlie,

I understand it is a variable speed drive so speed range is a more accurate term. However, most traditional tractors with hydrostatic transmissions have two or more speed ranges. In fact, most newer gear driven tractors do also, as do most 4WD systems in SUVs/trucks... One speed range is designed to provide power (i.e. torque) while the other is designed to provide speed.

My old PT-425 doesn't provide low-end power, especially when hot. Instead it provides about 10MPH (or so it seems) top-end speed -- I think the spec is 8 MPH plus. As I've mentioned, I can stall the engine on mine before spinning the tires (in dry conditions) -- most tractors will simply NOT do that in low range -- they will provide all the torque to the wheels that the tractor's weight/tire combination can apply without spinning, then a tire(s) will break loose and start spinning...

If the 20W50 transmission oil is cold, it'll stall the engine without spinning. If the oil is really hot, the wheel motors will just whine and do nothing. I'd like to be able to do my work without having to consider whether my transmission oil is hot or not, and whether the machine can/will go there and do what I need to do because of that ...
 
/ travel pump #58  
I haven't any experience except with my 1845. I was interested early on to hear that Sedgewood had more trouble climbing the steepest stuff than I did, although our machines were made at about the same time. I think much depends on the accuracy of the relief valve setting. Oil viscosity, of course, always plays a role, and later pump and motor wear. When new, my machine at slow crawl would always run out of traction before it ran out of power, and I never got the impression I was sitting on an open relief valve, with no forward movement. I haven't tested it recently, except to climb very steep stuff at a crawl while mowing -- not just to get the torque, but because I was scared. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
/ travel pump #59  
I still don't get it, I guess. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

The way I see it, if all four wheel motors are put in parallel and one of them starts spinning, the other three will get less fluid, as it will take the path of least resistance.

I picture a car tire on ice with no positraction.

What am I missing, here? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
/ travel pump #60  
MR,

IMO, you're a "flatlander"... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Spinning is not a real concern with me -- I don't have enough torque to spin in most circumstances. With loaded tires, my 425 will only spin on dry ground if I use down-pressure on a front attachment, essentially reducing the weight on the front. IMO, that's "operator error" and can be corrected as soon as it happens. It will spin in wet or muddy conditions...

However, there's a slope behind my barn that I mow up and down with my Simplicities that I cannot mow going uphill with my PT. In fact, if the oil is hot, I can't even climb back up it without the PTO running, so I couldn't mow it by mowing down and tramming back up. I had to get out of there by going across the neighbor's property, which has a gentler slope, and then back up the street... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

That was before I changed the transmission oil to 20W50. Now, it'll climb it, but I haven't tried mowing it again.
 

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