Trescrows, Defender of the BX, Request

[Charlie_Iliff]

Gomez:
I was trying to be flippant, but with a grain of truth. Diesels do consume less fuel for specific output, generally, but currently where we are, diesel fuel is more expensive than regular, so the savings are minimal.
Re: diesel longevity, it's probably still true that most diesels will last longer than gasoline engines of equal power, but the gap is narrowing. Modern diesels are being built lighter, with higher power output for displacement, so are more highly stressed than those which first gave diesels their reputation for longevity. The point is that gasoline engines are so much cheaper than diesels initially that often a you can replace the gas engine with a new one without getting to the initial cost of the diesel. Ignoring time value of money calculations, the diesel then has to last at least twice as long.
There is a good discussion in the context of boats, where the diesel/gasoline debate never flags, by an experienced marine surveyor named David Pascoe. http://www.lawnsite.com and you will see that the vast majority of engines up to 30 hp are gasoline, on commercial mowers designed to be run all week all summer. You'll see some comments that some guys would like to buy the diesels, but they simply can't justify the cost.
I have both diesel and gasoline engines, and have gotten good service from all of them. I simply can't say that a diesel is necessarily better, in any current application.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Duane:
I certainly can't quarrel with the experience in your fleet. I've run both Ford and Chevy gas v-8s a lot over 100,000 miles, and several cars well over 200,000 without overhaul. In my boat, a replacement 270 hp marine 350 Chev would be about $5,500 all new. Diesel would be over twice that. So far I have 14 years, estimated 2500 hours on the Chev, with no overhaul. That is not to say that I would argue for gas engines in your fleet. For some applications, diesels certainly are cheaper in the long run, or we would see gasoline over the road tractor trailers.
For up to 30 hp mowers, gasoline engines have most of the commercial market, and are obviously more economical for the commercial users who buy them - otherwise we'd see more diesels, which are available. My crack about diesel being a religion was meant to be humorous, and obviously fell flat. The point, if any is left to be made, is that a lot of people want diesel because they want diesel, whether or not it is ultimately cheaper. Those people aren't going to select a gasoline tractor even if it is cheaper over its life. I am not saying that necessarily a gasoline engine will be cheaper in any particular application, although from the context you certainly can tell I think that a PT 400 series will be cheaper overall than A BX.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

So, Marrt - now that I've come over here from the "other brands" forum and gotten the reception I probably deserve, what'cha gonna get?

 

[upgw]

A friend of mine has a Cub Cadet with a 25HP Kohler Command V-TWIN in it. It threw a rod at 800 hours. It was well maintained and full of oil at the time. New engine installed was < $1000. I love my Kubota, but I'll bet you couldn't touch it's 3 cylinder diesel engine for less than twice that price (or course, I've never heard of a Kubota diesel coming apart either).

- Patrick

 

[TresCrows]

Charlie, I should have inserted some smiley faces too--so here is one for you--- /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif --- we are just having a good discussion, I am not about to break out the flamming arrows with JMIII prowling about /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif .
I like gasoline engines too and I think Kubota should offer a gas version of the BX with something like a 20 horse or so liquid V-twin (Briggs would be Okay--or Honda) and price it about 1,500 dollars or more off keeping everything else the same. I think it would be a big hit. I am a diesel fan but most of the time gasoline makes more sense--that is my opinon. That the Kubotas and other small utility tractors are diesel is a function of a percieved need by the market (us--you and I) and some advantages in torque and fuel economy and longevity none of which generally cannot (cannot--read that careful) be duplicated in an appropriate gas engine.
Hey, I am with John concerning these forum and threads--let's just have fun and not fight over silly things, as far as I am concerned, for what it is worth, you are welcome anytime here in the Kubota section.
Make mine a 'bota. J

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi J…

Just passing by… anything new lately…?/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Charlie
Totally agree with you. There should be no reason for similar HP diesel engines to be much dearer than petrol engines. The injection system (rather than distributor/coil/sparkplugs) can not possibly account for the large difference in price alone. Whilst the diesel is usually heavier built, cast iron per ton is not highly expensive, or forged rotating components are not that much dearer if they are a few kilos heavier.
Manufacturing tolerances these days are not greatly different.

One possible answer may be that petrol models have a wider use and as such much larger numbers are manufactured. Most end up in vehicles and some end up in boats. A small diesel is rarely used in vehicles,at least not in the sort of numbers that V8 chevys have been sold over the years.The economy of scale would favour petrol engines.

I have always thought diesels are overpriced, and believe that the manufacturers price them to what the market will stand, which has no real bearing on what they actually cost to make.

Still, I would rather be on a diesel powered boat, if a fuel hose developed a leak, and fuel started to slosh around in the bilges,whilst under way. Better hope that the sniffer alarms are working, or that you have a sensitive nose, before fuel vapours build up to a flammable level.The other thing with diesels, seems to be a better resale value of the whole boat, which may have to do with higher initial cost.

Over the past 20 years I have sold several thousand marine engines in all sorts of boats, and whilst they were all diesel except maybe one or two, in our Australian market there would be more petrol boats than diesel, although thats slowly changing especially in larger cruiser type boats and yacht auxilliaries, which seem to favour diesel. This may be partly due to safety, but also due to proportion of cost of engines compared to the rest of the boat. I mean if you are building a million dollar boat, the cost difference of petrol or diesel engines may not be a major factor.

 

[glennmac]

Back to the purely mowing issue, it is difficult for me to imagine why I would choose a belly mower over a front mounted mower. I have never driven a PT, but I did own a BX and currently mow with a ground contact belly mower on a 2910.

The belly mower has good and bad points versus a 3ph mower. I am seriously considering going to a 3ph mower because of its ability to mow under and close to bushes and trees and corners, and its ability to mow over the edge of my creek banks. Of course, you have to mow backwards to accomplish this with the rmm. On a fmm like a PT, you could do all these things while driving forwards. In short, for mowing versatility, I can see no benefits of a mmm over a fmm.

As to suspension vs. ground contact decks, I have no significant opinion. Keep in mind that you can operate a ground contact mmm like a suspension deck if you want to, simply by raising it slightly off the ground and letting the caster wheels work as scalp wheels instead of as load bearing wheels.

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

Re: Diesel v. Gasoline

Bill- K
You said <font color=red>Still, I would rather be on a diesel powered boat, if a fuel hose developed a leak, and fuel started to slosh around in the bilges,whilst under way. Better hope that the sniffer alarms are working, or that you have a sensitive nose, before fuel vapours build up to a flammable level.</font color=red>
I have to agree, I guess, since we've all seen the results of gasoline explosions in boats. Pascoe asserts, however, that there are actually more fires in diesels than gasoline boats. Although gasoline tends to explode, a fire on a diesel boat can ruin your afternoon, as well. I have never heard of a gasoline explosion on a boat under way, but I suppose they have happened. The majority around here have been at a dock, usually just after some "repair" work. Several have been explosions of diesel boats, where the owner stowed a small outboard for his dinghy in a locker where the fuel leaked into the boat. No sniffers, no blowers. When my 14 year old Chev v-8 gives up, I will replace it with another 350 Chev conversion, which will certainly outlast me, and I doubt will ever blow up.
As you note, most high-end yacht powerplants are diesel, and buyers are told, if they don't already believe, that gasoline engines simply aren't right for boats. They then have to pay for the exorbitant cost of the engines, but also the cost of dealing with nearly impossible soundproofing. If your boat's big enough, you can get away from the diesel noise, but on the new high output engines for small boats, the noise is ear-splitting at anything above idle. (Just like my Power Trac 1845)
When my neighbor asked me about converting his 28 foot Bertram to diesel from twin V-8 Crusaders, I told him he could get the same effect for free. Just pull two spark leads from each engine. They'll run rough, smoke, smell, make noise and develop less power, just like diesels. He converted, of course, to new 300+ HP Yanmars, which I think are probably really good engines. He is delighted because he now gets 3 more mph wide open, and everyone can certainly hear that he has diesels. I haven't asked him what he paid for two new engines, transmissions, shafts and wheels, but know that it is more than he paid for the boat, complete with the two gas engines that he removed. So long as there are people who believe, as he does, that you must have diesels, I suspect the prices won't come down.

 

[MossRoad]

Great responses from someone with lots of experience with the BX. As Mart stated, I too value your opinion on this machine./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Just a few friendly comments:

I think the front mounted mower on the PT400 series will give just as good a cut over flat terrain. It is probably more versatile over rough terrain and better in corners, under bushes and trees, and safer for banks and ditches when approached perpendicularly. Also, it can float up much higher than the MMM, which is limited by the bottom of the BX.

The PT lift arms are extremely powerful. I, however, have never found the FEL lift capacity of the BX. The PT400 series, regardless of engine choice, is rated at 800 pounds. Could you please set us straight on the FEL lift capacity of the BX? I would appreciate it. I believe that the BX has a higher lift in inches than the PT, so that is an advantage for the BX.

And finally, to quote you,

<font color=blue>a diesel engine by Kubota or a gas engine by a water faucet company</font color=blue>

That was just harsh, man! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif