jpm
Platinum Member
40k you have 4 60x500 building,4 pros working all week for 3 week per unit that's alot of elect.work or a lot of slacking off. Get a attorney if nothing more than a consultation
Trouble on the farm with contractor
- Thread starter 40Kchicks
- Start date
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meledward23
Gold Member
I have done a lot of work as a T&M (time and materials) contractor over the years. Usually when the GC asks us to do something outside our scope or not in the contract. I must say T&M is the biggest pain for both sides. I believe maybe one in 20 times does the client and my company feel we both got a fair shake. In the end when a dispute arises, it is always over the hours. Did we really work those hours. blah, blah, blah.... All about hours.
I suggest that you get his hours. A detailed report of when they were working, etc.
In short though, I would say this
If your contractor is unscruppulous or not straight up, then you can expect a lien asap (meaning as soon as he can file he probably will). If he does this for a living he is probably ready to be challenged.
But still go over his hours, get material bill of laddings, and compare with his hours, to compare work down with and without materials, etc...
I suggest that you get his hours. A detailed report of when they were working, etc.
In short though, I would say this
If your contractor is unscruppulous or not straight up, then you can expect a lien asap (meaning as soon as he can file he probably will). If he does this for a living he is probably ready to be challenged.
But still go over his hours, get material bill of laddings, and compare with his hours, to compare work down with and without materials, etc...
riptides
Super Member
Well, look at it this way. You owe someone serious bucks, they can put a lein on you and go after more. Get a lawyer and cut into the money they claim you owe them.
Good luck.
-Mike Z.
Good luck.
-Mike Z.
SPIKER
Elite Member
Ok first off let me say, I'm an electrician by trade in a union factory. I have been contract labor in housing prior.
it is pretty darn easy to see WHAT is there now, you should have been privided a "bill of materials" for the job durring the start up process. this list should have had $ numbers on it as well as quanity of lights boxes outlets ect... now while you areout in the new barn, take a spread sheet or some other sort of paper, right down exactly what is in ONE building, (assuming the others are similar) count every darn outlet, box hunk of conduit. ect.) take this list and start compairing it to the bill of materials you got from him. Look for obvious mistakes or additions which aren't on the property... make sure that there are100 ights hanging in there if you were charged for 100 if you know what I mean.
Costs for lighting is an area that has really I mean REALLY gotten out of hand... Prices are sky rocketting and what is worse these are imported lights that used to be 20 bucks each are 3~5 times higher now. why? Now sure still made in china all same...
anyhow Copper has also doubbled in last couple years but just recently started dropping again due to a long lasting strike where #1 copper producing mine was/is at.. this is now over and workers are back working, I'm sure with better pay and benifits now.
anyhow also make a list of man hours spent on the job ANY time you have time & materials job. granted some hours are spent making calls getting quotes in the office, these hrs should be negotiable because physical work hrs were not spent ON the job, harder to prove. add up the men there with time spent there in day. If they arrived at 8 am left at 4 pm & ate lunch for an hr then you know each man worked X# hrs. that day.
some of this can not be done after the fact but tracking what was done and when can help you IF and WHEN this gets to the arbitration/legal stages... Don't wait to get this info untill then take it with you to the attorny. take EVERY thing you acn think of to him...
Reason I say this is because one bad contractor can make 10 good ones look like crooks simply by being a contractor...
In the long run you may have better luck trying to work out a deal with the contractor NOW, get the list of what you have installed NOW and take it with you when you go see him. from there go see the attorny of choice... you will have the info with you already... maybe let it slip when you see the contractor at 10 am that you have to be going by 1 pm to MEET with someone and you want to discuss what the bill has and possably work out a payment options with ihm. Be nice and smile ( Oh and try to make sure no witnesses see's you hide any parts ) lol
mark M
it is pretty darn easy to see WHAT is there now, you should have been privided a "bill of materials" for the job durring the start up process. this list should have had $ numbers on it as well as quanity of lights boxes outlets ect... now while you areout in the new barn, take a spread sheet or some other sort of paper, right down exactly what is in ONE building, (assuming the others are similar) count every darn outlet, box hunk of conduit. ect.) take this list and start compairing it to the bill of materials you got from him. Look for obvious mistakes or additions which aren't on the property... make sure that there are100 ights hanging in there if you were charged for 100 if you know what I mean.
Costs for lighting is an area that has really I mean REALLY gotten out of hand... Prices are sky rocketting and what is worse these are imported lights that used to be 20 bucks each are 3~5 times higher now. why? Now sure still made in china all same...
anyhow Copper has also doubbled in last couple years but just recently started dropping again due to a long lasting strike where #1 copper producing mine was/is at.. this is now over and workers are back working, I'm sure with better pay and benifits now.
anyhow also make a list of man hours spent on the job ANY time you have time & materials job. granted some hours are spent making calls getting quotes in the office, these hrs should be negotiable because physical work hrs were not spent ON the job, harder to prove. add up the men there with time spent there in day. If they arrived at 8 am left at 4 pm & ate lunch for an hr then you know each man worked X# hrs. that day.
some of this can not be done after the fact but tracking what was done and when can help you IF and WHEN this gets to the arbitration/legal stages... Don't wait to get this info untill then take it with you to the attorny. take EVERY thing you acn think of to him...
Reason I say this is because one bad contractor can make 10 good ones look like crooks simply by being a contractor...
In the long run you may have better luck trying to work out a deal with the contractor NOW, get the list of what you have installed NOW and take it with you when you go see him. from there go see the attorny of choice... you will have the info with you already... maybe let it slip when you see the contractor at 10 am that you have to be going by 1 pm to MEET with someone and you want to discuss what the bill has and possably work out a payment options with ihm. Be nice and smile
( Oh and try to make sure no witnesses see's you hide any parts ) lolmark M
gemini5362
Veteran Member
We are all curious to see what has happened with your problem. please post how your progress is going. I do notice that I forgot to add one piece of advice. Until you see an attorney every time you contact that contractor make a note of what was said if it is a phone conversation. Jot down the date, time, and what was said as soon as you get off of the phone. If you have to go to court the judge is going to be more likely to believe someone that has a diary of all conversations that show the time, date, and notes of the conversation over someone that says we talked on the phone about this but does not have anything written to back it up. Also any mail that you send the contractor needs to be sent registered return receipt. Make a copy of the letter and staple the registration receipt and the return receipt that they sign to it. If you have not already done so immediately send him a registered return receipt letter demanding an itemized accounting listing material and man hours. As I have said in an earlier post speed is of the essence. The contractor has a limited period to file a material lean, he is not going to waste time on doing that if you do not pay.
JimR
Elite Member
Eric,
I am going to be the opposition on this one. Most states have laws requiring written estimates for contracting work when the price is over $1000.00. You have not mentioned anything about a written contract with this electrician. So in theory, you have nothing in writing. The contractor has nothing in writing stating that he gave you a set price to go by. In my opinion, you owe him nothing. Save your money on a lawyer, you don't need one and you won't unless this clown takes you to court. He cannot win in court if he has no paperwork signed by you to prove that you agreed to his outragious prices. You do however have his word on the price quoted to you. Do you have a witness that can verify this estimate and that he said it should be less than the neighbors barns? I would call the Better Business Bureau, if you have one, to see if this guy has a bad trail behind him. It appears that his prices and lies may be reflected on the fact that he is the ONLY electrician in the area. Read on for a few experiences of my own and someone I know.
I had a little squabble with a guy that helped me rebuild my barn. He gave us a price for $20-24K. When all was said and done the price was $30K. There was no mention of anything in the way of price changes until the job was completely done. Most of this job was labor, not material, as we were providing for most of the materials seperately. This contract was estimated with a price that included another person to help him. He was working alone for weeks. Progress on the project was so slow that I quit my job to help him finish the barn before winter set in. The final price was raised the same amount as what we figure my time was worth. He had added in my labor to the fiinal bill so that he got my labor for free. When all was said and done, WE paid him what WE felt was a fair price minus my labor. He was not a happy contractor. We did have a written contract with him also. He never pushed the issue, never sent us a bill or put a lein on our property. He then proceeded to bad mouth us to his next customer. In the end he had a falling out with this customer also. We found out that he tried to screw this guy by jacking up the price by thousands of dollars after the fact.
My new neighbor hires a contractor to pave his driveway and build a stone wall. No contract is written. The neighbor keeps changing the project and has trees removed and other work done. When all is said and done he stiffs the contractor for $2500.00. The contractor has no written proof of anything and has to eat the bill. I know the contractor and got all the details directly from him.
My new neighbor hires another contractor to put in french drains, other types of excavation work and to remove a dozen trees. Everything is verbal, no contract is given. Sixty two trees later, the contractor is keeping count now, he wonders if he is going to be paid for all this work. The neighbor, CPA, then makes a deal with the contractor to do his books and set him up with a business plan to consolidate his loans so that he can bring in a Volvo Equipment Dealership. The new neighbor renegs on the deal, screws up the contractors books who in turn gets audited by the IRS. The contractor has to hire another accountant to straighten out his books because the neighbor won't return his phone calls. The contractor in the end get stiffed for $15,000.00. He was paid $11,000.00 which didn't even come close to cover the cost he had to pay his workers. The contractor had nothing in writing. He had no proof as to the amount of work that has been done. His lawyer tells him he can't do a thing to help him recover the money. These stories are right from the contractors themselves.
The bottom line here is this. If you don't have it in writing, then neither you nor the contractor has a leg to stand on when it comes time to fight this or to get paid. Any good lawyer will tell you this.
I am going to be the opposition on this one. Most states have laws requiring written estimates for contracting work when the price is over $1000.00. You have not mentioned anything about a written contract with this electrician. So in theory, you have nothing in writing. The contractor has nothing in writing stating that he gave you a set price to go by. In my opinion, you owe him nothing. Save your money on a lawyer, you don't need one and you won't unless this clown takes you to court. He cannot win in court if he has no paperwork signed by you to prove that you agreed to his outragious prices. You do however have his word on the price quoted to you. Do you have a witness that can verify this estimate and that he said it should be less than the neighbors barns? I would call the Better Business Bureau, if you have one, to see if this guy has a bad trail behind him. It appears that his prices and lies may be reflected on the fact that he is the ONLY electrician in the area. Read on for a few experiences of my own and someone I know.
I had a little squabble with a guy that helped me rebuild my barn. He gave us a price for $20-24K. When all was said and done the price was $30K. There was no mention of anything in the way of price changes until the job was completely done. Most of this job was labor, not material, as we were providing for most of the materials seperately. This contract was estimated with a price that included another person to help him. He was working alone for weeks. Progress on the project was so slow that I quit my job to help him finish the barn before winter set in. The final price was raised the same amount as what we figure my time was worth. He had added in my labor to the fiinal bill so that he got my labor for free. When all was said and done, WE paid him what WE felt was a fair price minus my labor. He was not a happy contractor. We did have a written contract with him also. He never pushed the issue, never sent us a bill or put a lein on our property. He then proceeded to bad mouth us to his next customer. In the end he had a falling out with this customer also. We found out that he tried to screw this guy by jacking up the price by thousands of dollars after the fact.
My new neighbor hires a contractor to pave his driveway and build a stone wall. No contract is written. The neighbor keeps changing the project and has trees removed and other work done. When all is said and done he stiffs the contractor for $2500.00. The contractor has no written proof of anything and has to eat the bill. I know the contractor and got all the details directly from him.
My new neighbor hires another contractor to put in french drains, other types of excavation work and to remove a dozen trees. Everything is verbal, no contract is given. Sixty two trees later, the contractor is keeping count now, he wonders if he is going to be paid for all this work. The neighbor, CPA, then makes a deal with the contractor to do his books and set him up with a business plan to consolidate his loans so that he can bring in a Volvo Equipment Dealership. The new neighbor renegs on the deal, screws up the contractors books who in turn gets audited by the IRS. The contractor has to hire another accountant to straighten out his books because the neighbor won't return his phone calls. The contractor in the end get stiffed for $15,000.00. He was paid $11,000.00 which didn't even come close to cover the cost he had to pay his workers. The contractor had nothing in writing. He had no proof as to the amount of work that has been done. His lawyer tells him he can't do a thing to help him recover the money. These stories are right from the contractors themselves.
The bottom line here is this. If you don't have it in writing, then neither you nor the contractor has a leg to stand on when it comes time to fight this or to get paid. Any good lawyer will tell you this.
MikePA
Super Moderator
JimR said:
From the 8th post in this thread, by 40Kchicks (bolding is mine);
"The contract I signed was for them to do the main electrical hookups for the new barns and tie in the new electrical with the old. Electrically hook up new poultry equipment and lighting. The rates were for $60 an hour for journeymen and 40-50 for apprentices depending on the level of their apprentices. I thought I had one journeyman on the job and 3 apprentices but actually two of the guys were journeyman level."
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Jim,
Obviously laws and practices are different all over the country, so I can't speak for your area. Nor am I lawyer or in any way knowledgable in law or legal advice.
Saying that, it's not hard to put a lien on a home owner for not paying for work performed. A signed contract makes it easier, but verbal contracts are just as binding. The problem you run into with them is proving that it was agreed upon. In my case, I take pictures of what I do and can prove that the work was done.
Most of my jobs start out as an agreed upon price and they almost always change as the job continues. It gets all verbal and it's up to me to document these modifications. Pictures do this pretty good, so do notes and material lists.
I don't like to wait until a big job is done to demand payment. If it's gonna be more than a few days work, I tell my clients that I want payment at the end of the week for labor up to that point. If I get into a dispute, I'm only out a weeks worth of labor and I can take them to small claims court. It's an easy win for me and I can then put a lien on there home.
You have a unique neighbor that seems to be about as out of control as they come. I wish you well in your deelings with him and hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction sometime soon.
40kchicks is in a tough spot. He has probably been taken advantage of, but it could also just be poor comunications on both parts. I'm not taking sides here, but I know what it can cost to run electrical in a fairly standard house and what it costs to run it in a high end house. The differeneces are staggering. His barns have that staggering expensive sound to me just because it sounds like there's a huge amount of labor and material that would go into it.
Those who suggest fighting it might be right, but I wonder how many of them would really do so? It's easy to say the contractor over billed him, but without actualy being there it might be bad advice and a huge waste of money, effort and stress.
Can you give us a breakdown of how many buildings? How many square feet per building? and some overall idea of what was done?
Being the only contractor in town doesn't mean he's crooked or dishonest. It could also mean that he's the only one who's been able to get he jobs done and provide a service. Getting a big bill isn't nearly as bad as trying to get a guy to finish a job. In my experience, you pay extra for a guy who will get the job done on time and correctly. I make a good part of my living going in and redoing others work, or finishing it off. I charge more than the original guy did, but I get it done. I've lost many a jobs by what I charge, but when they call me back to finish or redo what was done, they are happy to pay my price.
I'm anti lawyer, so it really is a last resort. He really needs to find out what was done and what he bought in materials first. If he hires a lawyer, that's the first thing the lawyer is gonna do, but he'll charge $100 an hour or more to do this and there's still no gurantee he'll find anything. My experience with lawyers is they will ask for an upfront fee in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. Then they will work every hour until they have almost spent every dime of that money. Maybe he'll get lucky and find a lawyer who knows building and electrical work, but I bet any lawyer he hires will have to spend hours and hours just trying to figure out what he already knows, and in the end, he's out thousands of dollars and no closer to resolving his bill.
I don't remember, but did you hire a General Contractor? His job is to make things happen and keep the person paying the bills advised of what is happening. Not only is the electrician guilty of sloppy buisiness practice, but the GC failed too. A half decent GC should know what the budget is and be on top of every step of the project. If something is running above budget, he informs the owner and gives him some options. This happens everyday and it's the reason you hire this person.
Another thing that I don't understand is the payment for materials. On every job I've ever done, you always get the owner to pay off materials as you progress on the job. My suppliers want there money and the bank wants those bills to keep track of progress. Did the electrician carry the cost of all the materials through the entire job? That's a HUGE debt that must have raised some red flags someplace. Is the electricin so huge that his supplier doesn't worry about tens of thousands of dollars in materials? It could be that I'm just too small an operations, but that would never happen with me. My suppliers want payment of some kind at least once a month.
Did you pay for any of the materials? Did you get any bills for materials as the job was progressing?
There's allot that happened here that I just don't understand.
Eddie
Obviously laws and practices are different all over the country, so I can't speak for your area. Nor am I lawyer or in any way knowledgable in law or legal advice.
Saying that, it's not hard to put a lien on a home owner for not paying for work performed. A signed contract makes it easier, but verbal contracts are just as binding. The problem you run into with them is proving that it was agreed upon. In my case, I take pictures of what I do and can prove that the work was done.
Most of my jobs start out as an agreed upon price and they almost always change as the job continues. It gets all verbal and it's up to me to document these modifications. Pictures do this pretty good, so do notes and material lists.
I don't like to wait until a big job is done to demand payment. If it's gonna be more than a few days work, I tell my clients that I want payment at the end of the week for labor up to that point. If I get into a dispute, I'm only out a weeks worth of labor and I can take them to small claims court. It's an easy win for me and I can then put a lien on there home.
You have a unique neighbor that seems to be about as out of control as they come. I wish you well in your deelings with him and hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction sometime soon.
40kchicks is in a tough spot. He has probably been taken advantage of, but it could also just be poor comunications on both parts. I'm not taking sides here, but I know what it can cost to run electrical in a fairly standard house and what it costs to run it in a high end house. The differeneces are staggering. His barns have that staggering expensive sound to me just because it sounds like there's a huge amount of labor and material that would go into it.
Those who suggest fighting it might be right, but I wonder how many of them would really do so? It's easy to say the contractor over billed him, but without actualy being there it might be bad advice and a huge waste of money, effort and stress.
Can you give us a breakdown of how many buildings? How many square feet per building? and some overall idea of what was done?
Being the only contractor in town doesn't mean he's crooked or dishonest. It could also mean that he's the only one who's been able to get he jobs done and provide a service. Getting a big bill isn't nearly as bad as trying to get a guy to finish a job. In my experience, you pay extra for a guy who will get the job done on time and correctly. I make a good part of my living going in and redoing others work, or finishing it off. I charge more than the original guy did, but I get it done. I've lost many a jobs by what I charge, but when they call me back to finish or redo what was done, they are happy to pay my price.
I'm anti lawyer, so it really is a last resort. He really needs to find out what was done and what he bought in materials first. If he hires a lawyer, that's the first thing the lawyer is gonna do, but he'll charge $100 an hour or more to do this and there's still no gurantee he'll find anything. My experience with lawyers is they will ask for an upfront fee in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. Then they will work every hour until they have almost spent every dime of that money. Maybe he'll get lucky and find a lawyer who knows building and electrical work, but I bet any lawyer he hires will have to spend hours and hours just trying to figure out what he already knows, and in the end, he's out thousands of dollars and no closer to resolving his bill.
I don't remember, but did you hire a General Contractor? His job is to make things happen and keep the person paying the bills advised of what is happening. Not only is the electrician guilty of sloppy buisiness practice, but the GC failed too. A half decent GC should know what the budget is and be on top of every step of the project. If something is running above budget, he informs the owner and gives him some options. This happens everyday and it's the reason you hire this person.
Another thing that I don't understand is the payment for materials. On every job I've ever done, you always get the owner to pay off materials as you progress on the job. My suppliers want there money and the bank wants those bills to keep track of progress. Did the electrician carry the cost of all the materials through the entire job? That's a HUGE debt that must have raised some red flags someplace. Is the electricin so huge that his supplier doesn't worry about tens of thousands of dollars in materials? It could be that I'm just too small an operations, but that would never happen with me. My suppliers want payment of some kind at least once a month.
Did you pay for any of the materials? Did you get any bills for materials as the job was progressing?
There's allot that happened here that I just don't understand.
Eddie
JimR
Elite Member
MikePA said:
I MISSED that post in my haste to read all of these before I went back to my roofing work. Thanks for the correction. There is still a major problem here based on the end price versus the price quoted. NOBODY I have every worked with, or had work done for me, has been out of whack by more 10-15% of a price quoted unless the project changed. My dealings on the barn was with a crook as far as I am concerned and got what he deserved, nothing more and nothing less. My neighbor on the other hand is well, no reply needed. As far as putting a lein on a house. Yes, you can have that done to you. I would love to see what a judge would have to say when you tell him the original quote was around $60k and the final price was $77K more. That price is more than 120% over the original quote. This electrician is not a respectable person. He should have been able to tell within a week or two what the final cost would be based on the amount of work already done. This electrician you hired is nothing short of a scam artist crook in my opinion or this is the second job that he has ever done as an electrician. I would ask your neighbor to supply you with a written letter telling of his dealings with that same electrician. I'm sure a judge would feel complelled to say the guy is not a very honest person. Keep us informed as to how you make out. If that were me, I tell him that I would see him in court. As mentioned above. It does seem that this contractor gets in the door by low-balling the cost estimate. I would do some more checking around and find out how many others he has scammed like that. It should benefit you greatly in court if the guy has a long trail of such dealings. He obviously needs to be taught a lesson.
Eddie,
One of those contractors I mentioned told me it would cost him over $10K in lawyers fees to try and get his $15K owed to him. Not to mention his time going back and forth with the courts and hearings. We have already spent over $3K in our suit against our neighbors and the papers haven't even been filed yet. I wish laywers up here worked for $100.00 an hour.
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MikePA
Super Moderator
As has also been mentioned in this thread, Eric signed a Time and Materials contract to "do the main electrical hookups for the new barns and tie in the new electrical with the old. Electrically hook up new poultry equipment and lighting. The rates were for $60 an hour for journeymen and 40-50 for apprentices depending on the level of their apprentices."
No offense Eric, but;
1. You signed a contract.
2. You admitted,
"I later found out that they did the same thing to my friend at his poultry ranch."
instead of finding out before you signed a contract.
3. You admitted the guy actually did the work you asked him to.
"Dusty I do believe they were honest about the time and material spent on the job."
4. You admitted your biggest concern is you didn't borrow enough money.
"If they would have given me an honest estimate I could have got that put into the loan from the start and it wouldn’t have been a problem but now it is too late to add this so now I’m in trouble."
In other words, had they estimated $137,000 you would have budgeted for it and this thread wouldn't exist.
5. These guys were the first contractor you hired.
"Unfortunately these electrical contractors were the first suppliers I hired and I didn’t know any better. I also wasn’t that worried about it because the estimate was they gave was reasonable."
IMO, Eric needs to take the emotion out of this and make a financial decision.
No offense Eric, but;
1. You signed a contract.
2. You admitted,
"I later found out that they did the same thing to my friend at his poultry ranch."
instead of finding out before you signed a contract.
3. You admitted the guy actually did the work you asked him to.
"Dusty I do believe they were honest about the time and material spent on the job."
4. You admitted your biggest concern is you didn't borrow enough money.
"If they would have given me an honest estimate I could have got that put into the loan from the start and it wouldn’t have been a problem but now it is too late to add this so now I’m in trouble."
In other words, had they estimated $137,000 you would have budgeted for it and this thread wouldn't exist.
5. These guys were the first contractor you hired.
"Unfortunately these electrical contractors were the first suppliers I hired and I didn’t know any better. I also wasn’t that worried about it because the estimate was they gave was reasonable."
IMO, Eric needs to take the emotion out of this and make a financial decision.