Trouble with 1430

[menchhofer]

Hope you guys can help out here.

I was using 1430 (diesel) today and shut it off. Now it will not start. Nothing. I did notice the 20amp breaker on the dash had popped out so I pushed it in. It then started. Thought problem was solved...not.

Next time I tried to start it it...again...nothing and the breaker is out again.

I began looking around and did not see anything out of the ordinary except for the breaker.

I tested both sides of the red wire on the breaker and one side is hot. The other is hot when the ignition is in the lst position. Then when the ignition is turned farther, the power is gone and the breaker pops. It will not stay in. I suspect this may be the problem. Or could it be the ignition switch?

The breaker will reset after a few seconds but will not stay in to turn over the engine when the ignition switch is turned to start the engine. All other fuses seem okay.

Appreciate any suggestions...thanks

 

[BobRip]

I don't know that machine. However, if the breaker is closed (stays in) and has voltage on one side and not on the other, then the breaker has failed. With the breaker open, parallel a 20 amp slow blow fuse with the breaker. If the fuse makes it work then the breaker is bad. If the fuse blows then something else is wrong.

Bob Rip

 

[cqaigy]

You might check to see if the starter circuit is pulling too much current. Some times the starter motor draws heavy if it drags too much. i.e. dirty needs to be lubed.

 

[menchhofer]

Okay, jumped the starter to load the machine onto the trailer and got it home. I still suspect the breaker on the control panel or the ignition switch.

 

[BobRip]

Does your engine have glow plugs? Perhaps there is a short in one. If you can compare the resistance of two plugs (if there are two) then it will give you a reference. You probably don't have an Ohmeter, so this is not helpful.

Good luck,

Bob Ripley

 

[Robert259]

You might check the ground connection from the battery to the frame for corrosion. I had a problem with mine and that fixed the problem.

 

[RegL]

According to the wiring diagram that breaker is in the battery feed to the ignition switch. I'm not sure if your saying the breaker pops when ign. switch is in the on position or start position. If in the on position, check for a short in any of your accessories. ( lights, engine gauges, hour meter, draft control, electric PTO.) I would especially make sure the pto switch is not on. If the breaker pops in the start position, I would check the starter solonoid.

 

[menchhofer]

I have been messing around a bit more. As stated, I can jump the starter solenoid and it does run.

In answer to the question, yes the circuit breaker on the dash pops out when the key is turned to the start position. In the on position, the lights and guages come on and the breaker remains in.

I am leaning toward the starter solenoid but I got a price of $150.00 from a Deutz dealer...ouch!!!

 

[Charlie_Iliff]

When you jump it to start, are you jumping all the way to the starter lug or to the solenoid? If the solenoid will pull in for a jump wire, its OK and your problem is a short in the switch or the wire from the switch to the solenoid.
If your test has been with a heavy jumper to the starter, try removing the switch wire from the solenoid and then jumping from the large positive lug to the switch pole. If it pulls in, you save $150. (If that's for a solenoid only, I'd shop a bit. No reason for it to cost that much, but I've not priced one for the Deutz.)

 

[RegL]

Try going to an auto electric shop if it turns out to be the solonoid. My starter is a bosch and most electrical rebuilders - sellers of industrial equipment stock or can order the parts. If you look at one of my posts from last fall, you will see why I know.

 

[DonStillwagon]

Hi - just replaced the solenoid on my 1430 for a different problem - it was hanging and the ignition switch was bad too - just too many hits with the pressure washer, I guess.

I used a brass marine switch ($30) and just a generic solenoid on mine - it works fine ($8). If you have the new diesel with electronics for low emission, be sure to use a solenoid from a newer vehicle - they have diodes to supress transients that might zap a computer. Mine is older and anything works that is 12 volts - if it will run a truck engine starter, it will start a 30hp diesel. Should you change the switch also, be sure to find one with an aux terminal - I did not, and had to put in a relay to make one from the run terminal - once the engine started, it would not shut off (!), so just added the relay, when the switch is turned to off, it opens and dumps the aux circuit too. I found a good use for the quick disconnect terminal (marine) on the battery when looking for options to shut the thing down!

You might still have a weak breaker that will not pick up the additional draw from the starter solenoid, or you might have a fault (short) in the wire to the solenoid. If the breaker will run the lights when in the run position it should be ok - the solenoid will draw less than the lights. If the breaker trips when the start wire is disconnected from the solenoid, then you have a short - find it or just replace the wire. You can also test the solenoid for a fault, but for $8, why bother.

After all that, good luck!

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Don

 

[DonStillwagon]

Just to clarify the first post - the dash breaker is just for control stuff, and the current draw I was referring to for the solenoid was just for the closing or pull-in coil. The actual starter current is delivered straight from the battery (follow the wires), and is affected by starter condition and load (cold oil in the engine and pumps kicks it up a lot).

The problem you have described appears to be something in the control side of all this, and could be the breaker, the ignition switch, the wire to the solenoid, or the solenoid itself. My switch was probably full of corrosion - I could wiggle the key and the starter would hit in (even in the off position!!), and even more worrisome from a $ standpoint, was trying to engage once in a while with the engine running. Definitely something to fix ASAP.

 

[RegL]

OK, I knew I was forgetting something. ( Alltimers I guess. ) Anyway, I went back and looked at my post from last Dec., Click here for link. and remembered that my 1430 has a start relay between ign. switch and solonoid . If you have one, that could also be defective. Cheap fix if thats it.

EDIT: shortened long URL so the post would fit on smaller resolution screens.

 

[menchhofer]

Okay...disconnected the black wire from starter solenoid and turned ignition to start..nothing. Breaker stayed in though.

The 1430 is a 02 model and not sure if it has a computer.

And, I am not sure about the glow plugs either. I do not believe it has any.

 

[BobRip]

If the breaker stayed in then it is most likely the solenoid, unless the breaker is tripping too soon. Try using a fuse to jump 12 volts to the solenoid. If this blows then the solenoid is bad.

Bob Rip

 

[DonStillwagon]

RegL is right - my cheap fix was the aux solenoid (regular generic starter relay) which I believe is used to unload the start switch. I forgot there were two solenoids in series. The aux relay uses 12 volts from the battery connection to the starter to energize the solenoid and pull-in coil on the Bosch starter, so it is not using power from the panel breaker to operate the starter solenoid, just for its own coil. The starter solenoid not only closes the power contact for the starter motor, but mechanically engages the starter drive gear to the engine flywheel, and that takes some amperage - thus the reason for the aux relay. Sounds like the aux relay is the problem, rather than the solenoid on the starter. My wiring diagram shows that the start connection on the ignition switch interlocks with the PTO switch and the neutral safety switch before going back to the aux. relay - all that should be fine, since the breaker did not trip with just the far (aux relay) end of the wire (black) disconnected. Were you able to verify the breaker would run the lights?

My 1430 is a 2002 also, and it does not have glow plugs or a computer on the fuel system, so I do get the black smoke on startup, especially in cold weather.

 

[menchhofer]

Okay..with what little understanding I have of electricity I have run a wire straight from the battery (w/breaker installed for safety) to the starter solenoid where the black wire attaches. Starter did turn over so I am relatively sure the starter solenoid is not the problem.

I am now more suspicious of the ignition switch or the 20 amp breaker on the dash although they both "seem to be working properly" I do not see any additional relays between the breaker..ignition switch...and on to the starter.

I suspect I will order the breaker and ignition switch Monday and see if one or the other solves my problem unless someone else has any other ideas or comments.

I do appreciate everyone taking the time to help out.

 

[J_J]

I have a similar problem on my 1445 which has a 45 hp gas engine. I thought my ign switch was bad and ordered one and installed it. Didn't fix the problem. Ever now and then it will start with the ign switch, but I have gotten used to lifting the hood and putting a screw driver across the start terminal and battery post, and it starts right up. I don't have an electrical diagram and no one else has one either. I may just wire in a new wire and switch assembly and see if that works. There is a neutral switch by the treadle that may be bad. I bypassed mine, I can't even see how it works. There is no plunger on the switch. It may be magnetic. Anyone else have any ideas.

 

[DonStillwagon]

Hi JJ: My neutral safety switch does have a short button - if it is not on the cam (treadle centered) it will not start. The 1430 wiring diagram shows the start wire interlocked thru contacts on the PTO, the neutral safety sw, the out of seat switch (which I do not have on my machine), and then on the to aux relay. Sounds like not all machines have an aux relay, so that may be a function of the type of starter and its current draw in the start control wiring. With your intermittent problem, it could be a switch or a loose or broken wire - you could possibly chase it down by applying power to the start wire at each of the connection points (with the park brake set of course) - I have had my tractor tram thru the brakes (slide the front tires) if it starts up with the treadle off center toward reverse!

Trying to find the open with a meter works best with an analog meter - sometimes the digital ones are so sensitive they will read voltage thru a bad connection when there is not enough electrical path to carry the current to do the job.

 

[RegL]

My wiring diagram doesn,t even show the aux start relay that's on my tractor. Instead it shows a 50amp fuse in the start circuit. JJ might want to look for that. might be in the vacinity of the connector box in the rear part of tractor.