TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid

   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #41  
wow.. you resurected a 4 year old thread.

big time zombie thread!
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #42  
wow.. you resurected a 4 year old thread.

big time zombie thread!

Well I have a big time zombie problem like "major transmission hydraulic leak" post by jwstewar on 03-24-2014 and am following down all the rabbit trails to find the least offensive answer. I wanted to verify again that the TSC fluid met NH spec.

I started using the TSC hyd fluid specifically because of the better cold condition ratings and not so much for the dollars. My now departed Dad was a retired lubrications engineer and he liked the lower temp range and it fixed the sluggish response in really cold weather.
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #43  
Also, Valvoline UTF exhibits a similar cold weather profile and the -38f temp is cold enough for me.
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #44  
Also, Valvoline UTF exhibits a similar cold weather profile and the -38f temp is cold enough for me.

I am going to revive it again. I have a Kioti Dk50se hst and will use Amsoil with a minus 58 pour point at the 50 hr service.
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #45  
I am going to revive it again. I have a Kioti Dk50se hst and will use Amsoil with a minus 58 pour point at the 50 hr service.

Nice. Hard to beat Amsoil. How pricy was it?
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #46  
Many in our industry call it the yellow bucket. This is a generic term for tractor hydraulic fluid, a unique multifunctional lubricant primarily used in farm and industrial tractors. In short, it’s a hydraulic fluid, transmission fluid and gear oil all in one, with U.S. demand estimated at 63 million gallons and valued at roughly $360 million in 2010. And while the term “yellow bucket” makes it all sound the same, it’s anything but.

Numerous specifications define the performance of THF, and most are OEM specific. In fact, it’s not unusual for a yellow bucket’s label to list more than 25 specifications from as many as 14 OEMs, including Massey Ferguson, Allis-Chalmers, Case, Kubota, Caterpillar, Duetz, Dresser, New Holland and others.

These labels sporting well-known OEM brands and numerous specifications might look impressive, but in many cases they can be deceiving and misleading, since some of the citations are often obsolete. As a result, farmers and others may pay less per gallon, but could end up paying significantly more in equipment repairs if they buy their THF without reading and understanding the label.

Take for example the many THFs labeled as satisfying John Deere’s JD-303 and JDM-20A specifications and Quatrol brand requirements. Deere dropped the JD-303 spec in the 1970s because it was based on sperm whale oil, which is illegal now to use as a lubricant. JDM-20A has been defunct since the early 1990s; it was superseded by JDM-20C. And listing “Quatrol” on labels can also be misleading since it was discontinued at the same time JDM-20A was deemed defunct. Deere has not monitored the quality of THF or claims relating to its specifications or brand names since the early 1990s, and this unfortunately has resulted in a free-for-all in the use of Deere nomenclature on labels — and in how products are formulated.

Absent any policing, some blenders reportedly now take the additive package designed to meet JDM-20C and use it at a lower treat rate to make fluids they claim meet JDM-20A (the defunct spec). Since JDM-20C replaced the older JDM-20A specification, they seem to have surmised that they can simply down-treat with the JDM-20C package and hit the mark. These oils are then sold to unsuspecting farmers as a THF meeting the needs of older equipment. But according to those in the know, this blending logic is flawed.

What some blenders apparently do not understand (or choose to ignore) is that additive manufacturers did not have to change their additive packages when the specification changed from JDM-20A to JDM-20C. When Deere upgraded to JDM-20C, its primary aim was to capture the requirements of the Allison C-4 specification; it did this by adding an oxidation and seal test for the formulated lubricant. All of the other tests carried over from JDM-20A. As a result, THF additive packages met the new specification without reformulation, at the same treat rates. Thus, a down-treat of the JDM-20C packages likely yields a fluid that flunks the defunct JDM-20A performance requirements.

Others in the industry are more direct about their concerns with down-treating. Rather than an innocent error born from blenders aiming to meet the needs of older tractors, they say down-treating is a deliberate attempt by some to cut costs and capture sales on price. And blenders get away with it because no one is looking and few seem to care.

Even more worrisome, some see down-treating as just the tip of the THF iceberg. They point to the use of very low quality base oils (even line wash) to blend products that in some cases are not even close to meeting the hotor cold-temperature viscosity limits for these fluids. As a result, farmers using these THFs may be buying themselves cold-flow problems (starting, starvation, etc.) and/or hot operation problems (high pump leakage, excessive gear wear and others). In addition, their oxidation resistance may be very poor, and this could lead to deposits, sludging, oil thickening, shortened service intervals and reduced equipment life.

Another important issue that speaks to the depth and breadth of the problem can be seen by taking a closer look at the wording on THF labels. Many fluids on the market don’t even say the products meet Deere, Case and other OEM specifications. Instead, they use such phrases as “recommended for,” “commonly used,” “typically used,” or “can be used where the following recommendations are made.” Sound familiar?

There is little argument from Deere and others that down-treating, use of low-quality base oils, and weaselwording on labels is going on. Furthermore, there continues to be a market for these products — and little wonder why. The THFs in question are priced well below legitimate products. As such, if marketers refuse to play the price game, they are boxed out of a significant volume of business. And they are not the only ones. Dealers also sell this lowprice/low-quality juice in an effort to meet the needs of their price-sensitive customers. And when the dealers themselves are selling it, it’s tough to convince farmers that a cut-rate fluid may not meet specifications and could cost them much more in the long run.

With that said, one has to ask, “Is it too late to educate consumers and stop the tumbling of quality in THF?” And beyond that, is there something we can learn from the THF mess and apply to other products left on the street with orphaned specs, like ATF?

(From the February issue of Lubes "N" Greases Magazine)
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #47  
Nice. Hard to beat Amsoil. How pricy was it?

Not cheap. About $31 a gal delivered. My feelings is the hydro takes all the heat and abuse .Why try to save a few bucks on the most expensive part of the tractor. By the way, my Kioti service man stated they use Napa fluid when they run out of Kioti fluid.
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #48  
The discussion is timely for me new fluid goes in soon; will I need to drain and change fluid due to run time before cold weather? You bet, and the NH Ambra 134 isn't going to meet my needs due to the high PourPoint (-5*F). When questioned about the PourPoint a few years ago, my dealer said that "most people keep them (compact tractors) in the garage so the temp isn't an issue and you shouldn't be out there moving snow at that temp"......this is a Vermont dealer talking about the equipment he sold to a local........seems like they knew there was a problem but had no official NH fix. I 'm once again looking for that wonder oil ....will look up the Napa stuff & the Amsoil. I have a young friend who finished at Rochester Polytechnic a few years ago with an extensive knowledge of combustion & lubrication, maybe I can track him down; learning the composition of all these oils seems useful.

Well, the HST seal kit is on order (and bearings, springs, clips, o-rings, etc) and we will be splitting the TC24d next week. I believe the problem is at the HST pump part of the transmission atline attachment or first seal and it will not be possible to pinpoint that location until the case is off. The rear universal and spline are bone dry, no dye showing but the front is dripping and faster when the machine warms up. Trying to attach some UV photos.
 
   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #49  
davisarc; The rear universal and spline are bone dry said:
The rear universal shows a UV pink which presumably is an assembly mark, possibly an anti- tinkering mark? The rear area is bone dry. The UV green showing on the Forward/reverse damper is the newly dyed & leaking hydraulic fluid. It then falls on the drive shaft and down to the forward boot.
 

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   / TSC and Travellers Hydraulic Fluid #50  
Don't remember much about an article on petroleum products but it concerned Walmart oil of some sort, don't remember which one and around here they sell farm lubes, but their viscosity vs temp was just a few points off one of the specs they had on their container and they got smacked for it.

I was impressed with the fact that someone does in fact keep tabs on these things and the ding was on such a small amount out of spec. Course out of spec is just that. It's in or it's out.

I just learned of Warren oil company recently and did some research. On the quality of their products and meeting specs, I don't see how a company in their business with the size of it and responsibility to it's customers and their customers could mess around with deliberately fudging on specs. Just too much at stake for them.

Personally if something were a few points out of spec big deal. I mean after you put it in your equipment and run if a few hours it's probably already out of spec.

My 2c.

Mark
 

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