Turning 100+acres of grassland into farmland?

mikeyee · Oct 25, 2009

Hi all, I just joined and wanted some input and advice on what I should do about this project.

I have around 200 acres on lease to grow bio-diesel (the plan is first rapeseeds then jatropha) and started to run the logistics of the operation to do such a feat. I am a greenhorn of this trade but will learn really fast (I mean an asian guy driving a 2500HD diesel truck +owning a tractor, I think I'm one in a million in the usa haha). The land that is leased to me is in east texas currently where switch grass/weeds are high (2-4') and chinese tallows are pretty common (my dad's friend took out all the trees on his property with his backhoe).

To start off my undertaking, I bought a used tractor on an auction house for 1300$. The tractor is a Yanmar YM2010 (compact tractor) with 900 hrs on it. The people said I got a steal and after much research (always go in with a budget/goal of undercutting) it was a good investment.

I have zero accessories (will probably need some but do not know which ones + lots of practice working with them) but some input on clearing and cultivating would greatly be appreciated!

Egon · Oct 25, 2009

Best be doing a little more planning on all the equipment you will need from cultivating, planting, fertilizer, spraying, harvesting, storage and transportation.

You will find that your present tractor may not be capable of doing the required work in the time frame you have available for the jobs.

Look around and see what others have for equipment and methods used as the methods will change from area to area.

Stampeder · Oct 25, 2009

Mike:

I too live in East Texas and own a 50HP Montana cab tractor.
You will have a challenge for sure with only a 25 hp tractor and 100 acres. I have enough with 15 acres and a 50hp tractor. Mine has A/C which makes working on the land in this country bearable.
If the land has been pasture and not worked for a while you will need to break it with a bottom plow, then disk it. This will promote moisture penetration and allow the Canola (rapeseed is now called Canola) to get a good root structure.
Are you planning to use the whole plant for biodiesel or just the seeds?

BTW I don't think your the only asian guy.....there are lots more that have been here farming since the building of the railroads a hundred years ago.......

Good luck.
Glenn

mikeyee · Oct 25, 2009

Thanks Stampeder! Well, everytime I go to college with my truck a lot of folks point and laugh at me as if I am out of my mind

and I seem to be the only asian with a diesel truck haha

I will definitely check out your suggestion on equipment, initially I have to cut down the tall weeds and kill them in order to clear the land and use other machinery to make it ready to plant these rapeseeds. I'm only interested in the seeds so the plants will die each year.

Yeah I know its going to be a slippery slope and a lot of work, but hard work pays off in time!

texasjohn · Oct 26, 2009

Welcome to TBN... lots to read about here...and, you are going to learn a lot in the next year... looking forward to your future posts...you are off to a great start by describing carefully your background, skill, objectives and including photos... we love photos!

You've got a lot of irons in the fire... there will be a lot of reality to contend with as you proceed. Time is your enemy, along with the weather and distance as you finish your degree, work your business and farm 200 acres. Don't plan on any sleep for a while.

I wish you all the best. I'm 40 miles or so north of you if you ever wish to drop by for a visit. Be glad to offer advice and ideas worth every penny of what you pay for it

ryanbr · Oct 26, 2009

Not trying to be negative or discourage you at all, I share my experience. I recently ripped up 70 acres of alfalfa hay land to plant either canola (rapeseed) or wheat next year. I did this with a 105hp tractor, 12ft heavy disk, 14ft deep tiller with spikes, 53ft diamond bar harrow then moved on to a 25ft deep tiller with 16" sweep shovels.

I disked twice early spring, deep tilled with the spikes as deep as I could go, then deep tilled 5 more times with the 25ft and sweeps. I harrowed between every operation some times twice.

I have approximately 120 hours into that 70 or so acres with the size of equipment I have. Also all in all the tractor I used was likely too small for 25ft. I hope by the time I need to rip up a full 160acres I can afford bigger equipment.

FYI, my grandpa worked the same land with Massey 44, so it is possible with your yanmar

flusher · Oct 26, 2009

mikeyee said:
Hi all, I just joined and wanted some input and advice on what I should do about this project.

I have around 200 acres on lease to grow bio-diesel (the plan is first rapeseeds then jatropha) and started to run the logistics of the operation to do such a feat. I am a greenhorn of this trade but will learn really fast (I mean an asian guy driving a 2500HD diesel truck +owning a tractor, I think I'm one in a million in the usa haha). The land that is leased to me is in east texas currently where switch grass/weeds are high (2-4') and chinese tallows are pretty common (my dad's friend took out all the trees on his property with his backhoe).

To start off my undertaking, I bought a used tractor on an auction house for 1300$. The tractor is a Yanmar YM2010 (compact tractor) with 900 hrs on it. The people said I got a steal and after much research (always go in with a budget/goal of undercutting) it was a good investment.

I have zero accessories (will probably need some but do not know which ones + lots of practice working with them) but some input on clearing and cultivating would greatly be appreciated!

Wow, 200 acres with a Yanmar--expect to rack up a lot of seat time. And you'll wear out that little tractor in a hurry.

By way of example, a neighbor of mine farms 200 acres of hayfield (oat hay). He uses a 165 hp Stieger Super Wildcat and 20-ft wide implements like the offset disc shown hooked to that beast.

In addition, he has a big IH tractor with rear duallies to pull a 20-ft wide spring tooth cultivator with a trailing spike tooth harrow chained to it.

The offset disc does the primary tillage. He follows with the cultivator/spike tooth to break up the clods and level the field.
Seeding is done with a 20-ft wide grain drill with a cultipacker attachment.

Lotsa acreage ==> biiiiigggg tractors and laaaaarge implements.

I just finished the first tilling of my 6-acre hayfield using my Mahindra 5525 tractor (54 hp engine, 45 hp pto) and a 6.5 ft offset disc. So far I've spent about 4.5 hours and will probably put in 15-20 hours more work until it's ready for planting (oat hay).

I wouldn't even think of trying to farm a 200-acre field with that 5525. I'm 68 years old and after about 2 hours in the seat, I'm ready to quit for the day and do something else. To me, tilling a hayfield gets very boring very quickly.

mikeyee · Oct 26, 2009

Thank you all with your inputs, I'm definitely keeping my options open and looking at tractor auction houses for something that fits my needs.

Though these leases of land (under a 5-10 year contract) will continue to grow since I go out and get more, I will definitely need to get more equipment (big tractors and attachments). This definitely is not a one man operation; I have a bunch of family and friends helping me out and like to learn more of this challenge. I got to hand it to you farmers, you definitely make it look easy

So for starters I would probably use my yanmar to clear my own land of 25 acres and for the other 200+ hold off on that until early next year. I will buy 2 big tractors (one for me and one for my dad, he's 58) to go out and try the larger scale operation.

To give you a rough figure, each acre that I can use will equate to 100 gallons of bio-diesel a year (first canola). That doesn't sound too much but once I get these jatropha seeds and plants in that'll go up to 200-400 gallons a year (but will increase labor costs/different picking methods). I won't need irrigation for jatropha because its a very strong plant (I have a bunch that survived without water for 3 months!) There currently are zero restrictions on the plant since its not an evasive species and the US department of agriculture just wants me to put up precaution signs (don't eat the seeds, etc) to insure no one gets sick. My goal by the end of next year is to plow 300 acres

I hope I can reach it!

I will go out there on the land this weekend and do some surveying, plot it in autocad, and post pictures of the land. Good thing in east texas is the fact the land is very flat and not very rocky until you go about 5-8 feet under. I'll continue to work on my plan and keep updating it for those that are interested and those that would be nice and give a viewpoint/input that is different perspective!

Western · Oct 27, 2009

One thing you may do, is look from central Texas up through the panhandle. You will likely find some good deals on larger tractors. I had a Case 150 hp I used on 386 acres but I only managed about 200 acres of it. I used mine mostly for haying, but in the fall I would usually plow to put in oats. I have gotten deep enough with a 14' chisel to almost shut me down in our black clay. I think a 150 hp would do you good if she's strong, or if 4x4 for sure.

What I have found is used large tractors are somewhat cheaper than the small ones since the demand is for 20-50 hp mini farm tractors. (no offense guy's, one I have now is only 38hp)
The implements are what can get you, so take care of what you get and keep up on the maintenance. A large tractor can do allot of damage in a hurry to a loose or damaged attachment.

Also factor in your farm diesel it adds up faster than you think and use every agriculture tax credit you can find.

I never seen a rich farmer as far as cash goes.....

mikeyee · Oct 27, 2009

I'll probably spend more days/weeks/months looking on which tractor to get but definitely above 100 hp since I don't want to be out there and not get much accomplished. My bottleneck on this project also is my carrying capacity. With my chevy 2500HD I can tow at max around 12,000 lbs. My dad (also an engineer) always tells me that 10,000lbs should be the max I should do. So my tractor will have to weigh in around 7-8k lbs (1-2k for the attachment I use for the day, and 2k for trailer). So I guess that puts me around a 100-125hp shopping list?

Also I've been always an avid auction buyer and always find great deals on them (I use proxibid.com). To tell a few short stories, I bought 3 stainless steel tanks mixing tanks (1000 gal each) totaling 6k lbs for 1200$. Some 500 gal ones went for 4k but I waited for the great deals after they blew off their money on the initial merchandise (patience is key!). Went from Humble, TX to Des Moines, Iowa with a 1986 custom gmc van (now rip) and hauled it back 2 summers ago. Second I bought pumps/other equipment for bio-diesel for 30$ each brand new from florida and etc. I've been everywhere to squeeze the dollars and I guess I will do the same for this. I always call ahead and ask them about it, there is always risk involved but that's life.

As far as attachments, I'm guessing for that size, they will cost a lot? Time to keep on reading

Thanks again for your advice! I definitely want to have this all ready by mid/late-december and be diligent in it!

flusher · Oct 27, 2009

mikeyee said:
I'll probably spend more days/weeks/months looking on which tractor to get but definitely above 100 hp since I don't want to be out there and not get much accomplished. My bottleneck on this project also is my carrying capacity. With my chevy 2500HD I can tow at max around 12,000 lbs. My dad (also an engineer) always tells me that 10,000lbs should be the max I should do. So my tractor will have to weigh in around 7-8k lbs (1-2k for the attachment I use for the day, and 2k for trailer). So I guess that puts me around a 100-125hp shopping list?

Also I've been always an avid auction buyer and always find great deals on them (I use proxibid.com). To tell a few short stories, I bought 3 stainless steel tanks mixing tanks (1000 gal each) totaling 6k lbs for 1200$. Some 500 gal ones went for 4k but I waited for the great deals after they blew off their money on the initial merchandise (patience is key!). Went from Humble, TX to Des Moines, Iowa with a 1986 custom gmc van (now rip) and hauled it back 2 summers ago. Second I bought pumps/other equipment for bio-diesel for 30$ each brand new from florida and etc. I've been everywhere to squeeze the dollars and I guess I will do the same for this. I always call ahead and ask them about it, there is always risk involved but that's life.

As far as attachments, I'm guessing for that size, they will cost a lot? Time to keep on reading Thanks again for your advice! I definitely want to have this all ready by mid/late-december and be diligent in it!

A 100 hp tractor is going to weigh in the 9000 lb range without loaded rear tires which will add another 500-1000 lb depending on whether you have duallies. Add the weight of a gooseneck trailer (4000-5000 lb) and you're towing quite a load with your 3/4 ton pickup. Check out the "Trailers and Transportation" forum here on TBN to get an idea of the equipment and loads that folks tow with 3/4 and 1 ton pickups.

Attachments need not be too expensive if you shop around. For example I paid $600 for this 13-ft tandem wheel disc (you'll need one of these for sure).

I removed some of the outer pans so my 54 hp Mahindra 5525 can tow it. A 100 hp tractor should handle it without a problem.

texasjohn · Oct 27, 2009

Given your ambitious plans for equipment and tractor, I believe you will need to move to a 1 ton tow vehicle....

Egon · Oct 27, 2009

It's easiest to get it hauled by someone else.

Robert_in_NY · Oct 27, 2009

Is there a reason you don't want to leave the equipment in the field? I can see bringing the tractor home after you are done with the major work but the implements will be fine out there and should be big and heavy enough so that no one will want to steal them.

MarkV · Oct 27, 2009

Mike welcome to the forum. You are looking at quite an undertaking there. Visit your ag extension agent. They will have a good amount of information and advice available for you and your taxes are paying for it already.

The equipment you are going to require is going to be a large investment for a start up business. Another option you have that is used in many agricultural areas is to see if you can contract out the initial tilling to an established farmer in the area. That could buy you a few years to get your program going with out the 10's of thousands it is going to cost to be properly equipped.

Good luck and keep us updated.

MarkV

mikeyee · Oct 27, 2009

I could contract the initial tilling out and shell out a couple thousand but comes harvest time and I still don't have the equipment would probably be a financial disaster since I would pay more in costs than in profit from this startup. It might be hard to justify paying for equipment now but its worth it I think since I'll gain insightful experience and know how to do it for future stretches of land. If I buy stuff used, then I don't think it'll break the bank (unless I'm really undershooting on what my needs are). Its true that buying bigger tractors are cheaper than the conventional size ones (less than 50 hp) so I just should just keep looking and modify my plans. I guess I could get a dually but those things are so hard to park! Plus I use this truck as a personal vehicle haha. After all, it is winter time so I have sometime to find what I need at rock bottom prices and start the work. Though how many hours is decent for a used tractor to have (or aka the limits)? Thanks for your advice!

jenkinsph · Oct 28, 2009

I really like the "can do" attitude and my hat is off to you.

Reading through this thread I know this will be a learning experience for you, I would heed some of the advice already given here. Farmers do not make strategy and equipment decisions based on the size of pickup trucks. Most of the farmers I have dealt with have a very tight grip on accounting with cost projections, cost per acre for planting, weed control, tillage and harvesting. All with good reasons because they have to in order to survive.

I think you would have a better chance finding out what you need to know about this if you were to make a test run with a much smaller plot. The associated costs of doing this and learning the ropes would be much easier to afford on a smaller scale, then the following year you could start with a lot better idea of what to expect without being bankrupt. It should be obvious that you need to know as much about what other farmers are doing and what costs, profits and methods they are implementing.

That is a great quote by Theodore Roosevelt, but let me temper this with "devotion doesn't pay my food bills".

Steve

mikeyee · Oct 28, 2009

Yeah this is all really great advice and its really helping me making my plans more concrete and flexible. As far as economics, my breakeven point is at 25 acres (give or take some percentages) and starts to really profit after 50 because of the initial cost and the additional time/effort increases profit margins.

I always look at the margins and the risk so hopefully things will turn out for the better. I also have a few friends that want to help so thats always a good thing. Although I rather not let them use my equipment in fear that they don't know what they're doing or I am liable.

I'm probably going to buy a ~90hp around tractor in december to help a lot with time (plus its the max my truck can tow) and perhaps later a 125 hp one to handle more leases that I hope to startup (over that is overkill since eventually the plants won't need annual rotation/replowing). I don't want to overload my equipment on my needs on the field otherwise it'll probably break down prematurely. I guess what I need to do next is just trial and error and gain experience on dealing/solving problems I'll have in the field

True, dedication/perseverance doesn't help bring food to the table but it gives motivation to try harder and be better next time

Take care folks!

Uncle Doug · Oct 28, 2009

Welcome neighbor, you certainly have your work cut out for you. You might also consider this bio-diesel crop.

Kinetic Study of Biodiesel Production from Chinese Tallow Tree Oil

I don't know if anyone in the US has grown the Chinese tallow tree for bio-diesel but I know here in east Texas they will not die.

EddieWalker · Oct 28, 2009

texasjohn said:
Given your ambitious plans for equipment and tractor, I believe you will need to move to a 1 ton tow vehicle....

This is what I was thinking. One ton with duel rear tires. Those extra tires make a HUGE difference in stability. I personally want a one ton, duelly flatbed with an extra cab. I see them all over the place and it's almost like buying electronics. The longer I wait, the more deals there are to choose from. Then I wait even longer, and even more deals become available. I've waited so long now that I'm coming across 12 tonne excavators now that are very reasonable. Tractor and truck prices are coming down and there are more and more of them to choose from. It's almost overwhelming, and if it wasn't for the non stop rains that we're getting, I might do something stupid.

Eddie