UAW basically lets US auto industry collapse!!

2manyrocks · Dec 12, 2008

Eddie, I don't think the politicians would really be interested in economic efficiency or saving money. They pad their legislation to get $ to do favors for themselves and their supporters. Before the Nov. election, I saw three state transportation workers scooping up gravel from a concrete gutter on the highway. They had about enough material to maybe fill a wheelbarrow. But they had brought out a new Volvo front end loader to carry the material off. One guy with a pickup would have been overkill.

Before the election, our governor announced three grants for DUI enforcement---each went to the home district of the speaker of our house of representatives. (I guess his district has more DUI's than the other districts, and the awarding of the grants had nothing to do with his being speaker of the house.)

The politicians have known about the risks of depending on foreign oil since 1973. What have they done?

Does anybody else find it interesting that gas was so expensive before the election, there was talk of energy independence, and now gas is back to $1.50 a gallon?

Who wants to buy a car when Pres. Bush gets on TV and tells us that we'e on the brink of another Great Depression if Congress doesn't immediately give Secretary Paulsen unlimited discretion to blow (er, spend) $700B to get the banks lending money again. (But why would the banks make loans if people don't have the income to pay them back?)

The politicians are supposed to be in control of the bank examiners who are supposed to be checking the banks for safety and soundness. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that subprime mortgage lending in excess of the fair market value of property is not safe nor sound. Where were the bank examiners when this was going on?

The lending practices of Freddie mac didn't help, either.

Politicians also control the FTC and Dept. of Justice who let the banks merge, merge, merge until they became so large that the failure of a Wachovia, for example, becomes a national problem instead of a localized regional problem. And the stockholders of Wachovia have taken a pounding while the CEO who was largely responsible for the mess received big bucks to go home.

It's not just the UAW and the executives of the Big 3, but the government itself bears responsibility, too, for this melt down in the banking and financial markets.

Renze · Dec 12, 2008

2manyrocks said:
Who wants to buy a car when Pres. Bush gets on TV and tells us that we'e on the brink of another Great Depression if Congress doesn't immediately give Secretary Paulsen unlimited discretion to blow (er, spend) $700B to get the banks lending money again. (But why would the banks make loans if people don't have the income to pay them back?)........

......It's not just the UAW and the executives of the Big 3, but the government itself bears responsibility, too, for this melt down in the banking and financial markets.

As a European, i'm not on top of this news as you guys are, but i do try to follow it because it also effects us now..

Your post, as well as the piece written by that Ford dealer, sure has given me some new insights. I have read elsewhere about the loss of GM and profit of Toyota in the same year...

Also, the image of American made cars in your own country, doesnt differ much from how American made cars are valued in Europe: They do have the image of inefficient vehicles that nobody wants... However if GM is selling better than Toyota they must be doing something right, i mean, if American media speak of their national auto industry in terms of "cars that nobody wants" , the media is drawing a false image....

I havent been in or around American cars lately... Chevys they sell here, are Korean made Daewoo (in which i wouldnt want to be found dead) which once started as a license built Opel Kadett (Opel is the European GM subsidiary)

I think i'd better judge them based on the sales numbers instead of what the press says... As a matter of fact, the press writings of doom, usually become a self fulfilling prophecy because people that believe its all bad, will stop spending their money and when the money stops rolling, the financial problems spreads through the buy-sell chain like a plague...

Diamondpilot · Dec 12, 2008

turbo36 said:
This is complete BS! I worked in a GM plant and the entrances were video recorded 24/7. It's lies like this that have added to the anti-union witch trials going on right now.

This is not a lie. He was in maintenance so maybe they were able to slip in and out but it happened. I am sure a good portion of the jobs they did were on the outside of the plant.

Chris

ToadHill · Dec 12, 2008

I spent 30 years of my life negotiating union contracts for different companies and I can say that unions can ask for what they want but it's the company who agrees and gives in to unreasonable demands. Some companies never think of what they are giving into and where it can lead them. When times are good they agree to everything, it's the easy way out. When times get tough it's almost impossible to get things back that can save you money.

I know of many company negotiators who couldn't believe that I went into negotiations with a list of demands just like the union did. If they wanted something I wanted something in return. I will say that the first time I negotiated with most unions they couldn't believe that the company had things that they wanted and that we would not agree to a contract unless we got some of out demands.

ultrarunner · Dec 12, 2008

weldingisfun said:
There was a news report a few days ago citing one of the opposing bail-out senators, name I can't recall, as saying that in 2007 GM and Toyota USA each produced the same numbers of cars, but GM ended up with a $35 Billion loss and Toyota USA ended the year with a $17 Billion profit.
That should tell us something about the way business is done. Anyone care to guess what it may be?

Toyota and GM also manufacture cars together on the same line at the NUMMI plant in Fremont CA... It was explained to me the GM/Toyota partnership does not have legacy costs and this is the major difference.

The Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix go down the same line together as did the GEO Prizm and Toyota Corolla... so it's not a difference in product or quality here

turbo36 · Dec 12, 2008

ToadHill said:
I spent 30 years of my life negotiating union contracts for different companies and I can say that unions can ask for what they want but it's the company who agrees and gives in to unreasonable demands. Some companies never think of what they are giving into and where it can lead them. When times are good they agree to everything, it's the easy way out. When times get tough it's almost impossible to get things back that can save you money.

I know of many company negotiators who couldn't believe that I went into negotiations with a list of demands just like the union did. If they wanted something I wanted something in return. I will say that the first time I negotiated with most unions they couldn't believe that the company had things that they wanted and that we would not agree to a contract unless we got some of out demands.

Well said!

I have a friend that was a plant manager and went through many negotiations. He was fond of saying " now listen a minute here, the contract we end up with will tell me what I can't do, not what I can do, so how creative are you going to force me to be?" He always got what the company needed to remain competitive.

ToadHill · Dec 12, 2008

Turbo: One of my old bosses used to say is " A labor contract defines which of it's rights management has agreed to modify to achieve labor peace."

blueriver · Dec 12, 2008

It's just wrong ...

EddieWalker · Dec 12, 2008

Diamondpilot,

You reminded me of another incident that we had to deal with. Three of our members go the idea to clock each other in and out. We had regular start times, and then depending on seniority, we had early starts for those who wanted it and what was available. Whoever had the early start would clock in himself and the other two. Then if one of them stayed late, he would clock out the other two when he left. There's no real way of knowing how many hours they stole from the company doing this, but after awhile somebody figured it out and they installed a hidden camera in the ceiling. They taped them doing this for two weeks before firing them.

They were off for a few months, but in the end, got their jobs back with backpay.

Eddie

IH3444 · Dec 12, 2008

The labor union leaders are basically trying how NOT to negotiate themselfs out of a job. The plants need the workers to assemble cars, sort out some bugs, generate new ideas about assembly, and keep the line moving. If the workers take a small reduction in wages, say $4-5 hour, and then don't have to pay union dues, they only lose a little, if any at all. There was a time when labor unions were necessary, but with the Federal Labor Laws spelled out, such as 8 hour days, 40 hour workweek, overtime spelled out. The unions of yesteryear did create the demand for such laws as we have today. The workers then needed to be protected from the large companies just working them into the ground, under harsh conditions. It's tougher for the union leaders to look like they are needed. I haven't looked, but does BMW, produced in South Carolina, Honda, and Toyota have labor unions? I don't know. What I do know is that GM, and Chrysler are being driven off a cliff by what I see is the UAW union leaders. Lee Ioccoca said once, I have jobs at $14 an hour, I don't have jobs at $22 hour. He rescued Chrysler, and turned things around there, and made a profit. If GM and Chrysler do go bankrupt, they will reorganize into a better company. How much farther can they fall? THis is a capitalist system, you take risks and either win, or fail. GM bet heavy on the SUV market, and it worked well until gas went to almost $4 gallon. Bailing out the reckless decisions made by upper management, CEO's, and union leaders is almost silly. Not to mention the outlandish salaries the CEO, union leaders and managemnt make to be "rewarded" for running the company into the ground. Both are now circling the drain, but can emerge leaner, stronger, and much more competitive under chapter bankruptcy laws. There is going to be great pain, but the US car manufactures have fallen behind, and the union hasn't helped much, and they aren't helping now. They are still making unreasonable demands. The days of reconing are fast approaching. The talk is a deal will be worked out this weekend. I'm sure it mostly has to do with union consessions about a fair competitive wage to workers. If they don't work it out, and the both go into chapter 11, then a lot of other agreements are called into question. The retirees are the ones to suffer them most from all of this. And us as Americans will pay the union leader, CEO's tab for their reckless leadership. The whole thing is just absure. From giving people huge amounts of money for subprime loans, which they can't pay back. To 50-60 TRILLION dollars in worthless debt swapping credit paper, to bailing out the bank system, to now bailing out the mismanaged car companies. We are now reliveing events that our grandparents saw back in the 1930's, because our leaders can't remember history, and those whom can't remember history, are condemend to repeat it. I do believe that we will not make some of the great mistakes with our recovery that was made in the 1930's, but it's going to be a hard road ahead. Then there is the Medicare, Social Security, and other entitiments which are under funded by absolutely vast amounts of money. Chinese cars are suppose to make their arrival in 2010. Cars from India are not far behind. GM, Ford, and Chrysler better get their act wired together tight, because the compitition comming up soon is going to devore them down to the bone. I know I've rambled on, and there are many statements I've made, which can be pointed, and counter-pointed. The greed, and lack of leadership at the top of these companies is hard to fathom. These are our best and brightest from our best schools, and Universities running things.......

BungeeII · Dec 12, 2008

Reading the title I expected to see nothing but narrow-minded views of the situation... That's certainly not been the case, has it?

Based on what I ~think~ i know, here are your major culprits...

1. Investment and funding. Mainly effected by this latest financial meltdown.
2. Sales decline due to:
A. Reduction in lending...due to financial meltdown
B. Gas prices hurting the profit-rich truck and SUV market
3. Investment in R&D and manufacturing to comply with CAFE changes.
4. Huge insurance and pension expenses.
5. Huge payouts to terminate labor. (Expensive but alleviates #4 long-term.)
6. UAW fat. (Jobs bank, protected positions, areas of inefficiency and finally assembly line labor.)

I'm 100% I'm overlooking something.

The UAW has to figure out a way to make Detroit an inviting place for the autos. The current contract structure is killing the job market here. Allowing for economical entry-level employment is a MUST.

Builder · Dec 12, 2008

turbo36 said:
This is a copy of an email I received this morning.

A Ford Dealer in the Pittsburg area, outstanding letter to the editor

Intermountain Letter to the Editor- Elkins Fordland

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region?
Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers?
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord? And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid? Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic?
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda? Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world!
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Also, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Jim Jackson
Elkins

Totally agree!

The notion that the Big 3 "build cars nobody wants" is PURE BULL ____!!!!!

There's lots of GREAT American cars & trucks!!

blueriver · Dec 12, 2008

Anybody ever wonder what one of the big 3 auto's would actually cost us ... IF ALL THE BS WAS CUT OFF THE TOP????

ninefinger · Dec 12, 2008

coobie said:
.PS.I am one of them lazy union workers (32 years IBEW)electric lineman,that have fought for a safe work place,health care for or familes,pensions,sick days,paid vactions.I have also worked my lazy butt off 18-20 hour shifts in the worst weather conditions that you can imagine while you were home sleeping in bed nice and warm.coobie

When the IBEW came in to our company it did nothing but hurt us. CEO looked foward to new contracts, he could divide the membership by giving to this group and that group but not to this group. Smart man he could do math. This is a right to work state, no mandatory union membership, no strike clause, very weak union here. Finally voted it out, got better raises and bennefits. DO NOT whine about the 18-20 hour shifts, yes the money is good but you stay in the industry because you do not want to do anything else. There is something that happens to a man after the first time he gloves high voltage. Get to handle a heavy loaded line and feel your gloves rattle, **** it don't get no better than that.

EddieWalker · Dec 12, 2008

turbo36 said:
This is a copy of an email I received this morning.

A Ford Dealer in the Pittsburg area, outstanding letter to the editor

Intermountain Letter to the Editor- Elkins Fordland

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region?
Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.

Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.
Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.
When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.
When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers?
Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord? And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid? Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic?
When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.
When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.
Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda? Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.
It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world!
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Also, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.
After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!
We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.
Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.
The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?
As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.
So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.
So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?
Jim Jackson
Elkins

This is total misdirection to take the focus away from the problem. Nobody is saying the problem is the quality of the vehicles being made.

The problem is that they cannot sell the vehicles that they make for a profit. Either they have to charge allot more, which means nobody is going to buy them, or they have to cut down on their expenses. When guys are making $55 an hour to assemble a car, you really have to wonder what they do to earn that kind of money? When management is making twice that much, you REALLY have to question what's going on with the way they spend their money. Add to that, how many millions are they spending on Lobbyist?

Obviously the people working for the companies are the ones caught in the middle. I don't think anybody is disputing that. What are the Unions willing to do to keep the plants open and the company out of bankruptcy? What is management willing to do to cut expenses, perks and bonuses?

Eddie

coobie · Dec 12, 2008

ninefinger said:
When the IBEW came in to our company it did nothing but hurt us. CEO looked foward to new contracts, he could divide the membership by giving to this group and that group but not to this group. Smart man he could do math. This is a right to work state, no mandatory union membership, no strike clause, very weak union here. Finally voted it out, got better raises and bennefits. DO NOT whine about the 18-20 hour shifts, yes the money is good but you stay in the industry because you do not want to do anything else. There is something that happens to a man after the first time he gloves high voltage. Get to handle a heavy loaded line and feel your gloves rattle, **** it don't get no better than that.

NO WHINING HERE!I have been doing the 18-20 days in storms to long,its what is expected of lineman.Not a better job on earth IMHO.coobie

turbo36 · Dec 12, 2008

EddieWalker said:
This is total misdirection to take the focus away from the problem. Nobody is saying the problem is the quality of the vehicles being made.

The problem is that they cannot sell the vehicles that they make for a profit. Either they have to charge allot more, which means nobody is going to buy them, or they have to cut down on their expenses. When guys are making $55 an hour to assemble a car, you really have to wonder what they do to earn that kind of money? When management is making twice that much, you REALLY have to question what's going on with the way they spend their money. Add to that, how many millions are they spending on Lobbyist?

Obviously the people working for the companies are the ones caught in the middle. I don't think anybody is disputing that. What are the Unions willing to do to keep the plants open and the company out of bankruptcy? What is management willing to do to cut expenses, perks and bonuses?

Eddie

First of all they don't make $55/hr, you need to check your facts. The average wage of current UAW members is around $28/hr , Toyota is actually higher at $30/hr. Current new hires are at $12-14 because the union made some big concessions in the last contract. The difference is that the transplants don't have the legacy costs that the Big 3 have and the transplants have new modern factory's financed with public tax dollars. Reread the above and you will see it amounted to $253 million for the Mercedes plant.

Eddie where is your outrage for the high wages paid to workers in the financial community? In the book "The world is curved" by David Smick, he writes that the average wage of a Goldman Sachs employee in 2006 was $622,000 with some administrative assistants and secretaries making over $200,000.