Underground propane tank

   / Underground propane tank #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( .............In our area ,even underground home heating oil tanks are now frowned apon .
Allen )</font>

For what reason? I have never heard of a underground home heating oil tank ever exploding. I believe that this is near impossible since heating oil has no fumes to ignite and the oil needs to be atomized before it will burn. Put some diesel into a pan and try to ignite it with a match. It can't be done!
 
   / Underground propane tank #12  
If an above-ground tank leaks, the heavier-than-air propane settles to the ground and spreads. If a below-ground tank leaks, it can eventually migrate through the ground, if the ground is porous enough, but it won't be combustible unless it somehow is exposed to outside air. Propane needs approximately 90% to 98% air in the mixture to ignite.

The only way it could be exposed to the air is to migrate to a lower, exposed area. Once in the air, if it is open, it usually dissipates to a non-combustible level within 10 feet.

The only problem I have ever heard from an underground tank occurred here in Florida, and was diagnosed by a close friend of mine, who is a state LP Gas inspector and safety expert. An underground tank leaked a substantial amount of gas, which migrated through Florida's sandy soil, along an underground pipe line, through a crack in a concrete foundation, to a basement room lower than the bottom of the tank. Eventually, because the room was closed, it built up to a combustible level of between 2% and 10% gas. Then, someone flipped a light switch or created some other form of combustion, and...Floomph!

The only time propane is really dangerous is when it's allowed to concentrate to a combustible level in a closed area. Out in the open, it can be scary, but manageable. It does not "blow up"; it just burns real fast (like instantly), which can cause air pressure damage in a closed area.

Firemen are trained to look for the fill dome of an underground tank; it's doubtful they would be on top of one without knowing. It would be nearly impossible for a house fire to affect an underground tank, even if it was leaking.

I used to hold the highest class LP Gas license for the state of Florida, until I retired a couple of years ago and let it expire.
 
   / Underground propane tank #13  
Thanks Don ,
In our area ,which is very remote, I don't think our volunteer's get much training . It is sort of like the good old days where everyone joined in to help . Maybe not the best idea, but we are all very close, in this town to each other and are always there to help each other . The good news is we did save 6 "concrete foundations" from burning down with the houses this pass year /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif! Just kidding !!! Thanks for the information .
Allen
 
   / Underground propane tank #14  
When we had our in-ground tank installed last fall they warned us to keep it full or it could float out of the ground in the spring rains.

But I see you live in Arizona! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Not to worry.

Steve
 
   / Underground propane tank
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Thanks, everyone, for the advice. I am looking to replace a leased tank with my own because the gas company I am dealing with is not reliable here in the winter. They have a high turnover in drivers and the new drivers are usually afraid of the 35-mile mountain drive in foul weather. I nearly ran out last winter because of that. My intent is to own my tank, with enough capacity to last me through the winter--I used about 200 gallons last year.

I am a confirmed do-it-yourselfer, but grudgingly accept the fact that I will have to stand by as it is installed. The big problem right now is finding a source. The suppliers in the area that I have talked to are reluctant to sell any tanks. The lease fees are apparently too lucrative.

Steveinmo--That's one advantage to living in a desert!
 
   / Underground propane tank #16  
<font color="blue"> I don't think our volunteer's get much training </font>

It's a problem everywhere, no matter how sophisticated the department. My son-in-law is a professional fireman/medic in a rural department (Okeechobee, FL) and while they get excellent training, he knows more about the LP Gas hazard than other members in his department, because he also held an LP Gas license under my company, and got his training from the same safety expert from whom I got mine.

Florida has a Division of LP Gas, which employs several inspectors around the state. They are propane safety experts. Their primary job is to inspect all propane facilities, public and private, for safety concerns. They are also called every time there is a leak or an incident concerning LP Gas. They are the "Go To" guys for the fire departments. Often, when they show up at an emergency, the fire department is taking the wrong action or giving the wrong advice. There is so much misinformation about propane that it's tough to overcome everyone's fears.

Here's a question for anyone: Consider the scenario mentioned by Pineridge, that someone shoots a hole in a propane tank. What would happen? Hint: think about the fact that when you light up a propane plumber's torch, like a Bernzomatic, that you are holding the tank in your hand. Are you worried about the tank blowing up because there's a flame shooting out of it?

Short answer: The propane will leak out. How long it takes depends on whether the hole(s) are in the vapor area or liquid area, and how big the holes are (a big hole in the vapor area will take longer to leak out, because the liquid will not vaporize fast enough to keep up with the leak). The gas or liquid coming out close to the tank will have not enough air to be combustible. In other words, even if there is a source of ignition, there should be no flame really close to the tank. When the gas does mix enough with the air to light, it will only do so if there is a flame or spark. If not, it will simply dissipate in the air to the point where there is not enough propane in the mix to ignite. If it does ignite, it will be like a flamethrower, or a giant Bernzomatic torch. It will not blow up.

If the air is still, and enough combustible gas gathers around the leak, and it is ignited, it will "floomph" until all the fuel is exhausted, which will be right away, and it may create enough of an air-pressure surge to knock you over if you are close enough. Then, if it is still leaking, it will setttle into the torch mode.

The greatest frequency of leaks is caused by a valve or pressure release that fails. Usually, the safest thing is to ignite the leak and let it burn until the tank is empty. This is mentally the hardest thing for the fire departments to do. That's why the LP Gas safety inspectors are called in at every leak.

I got really close to our local inspector while I was in business, and he lives not very far from my Okeechobee property, so we have maintained the friendship since I retired. He is not only an LP Gas expert, he is also a trained and experienced fireman, so he can see both sides. His stories are great.
 
   / Underground propane tank #17  
I would guess that underground oil tanks are frowned upon because of leaks contaminating the ground/groundwater not because of any fire danger.
 
   / Underground propane tank #18  
Many times combustible vapour clouds heavier than air are lit before the cloud can move and become very dangerous from both oxygen deprivation or finding an unwanted source of ignition.

If a propane is jetting liquid and a torch fire is going on cooling is a big factor. If the tank is involved in a conflagration there may be the word Blevy mentioned and it may be prudent to observe from some great distance like a mile or so. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Or so I have been told.

Egon
 
   / Underground propane tank #19  
If your going to buy you own tank?? Then call all of the suppliers in your area and ask them if they will fill your own underground tank. Some suppliers will only fill their own tanks. Insurance reasons. And you can get the LP at a cheaper rate if you have your own tank, at least in this area. But five years ago some of the suppliers around here stopped filling other peoples tank, this has since changed and they went back to filling the ones that are owned by the homeowner but not others that are leased. And also at one time the underground ones were not allowed in our area but this has changed also.

murph
 
   / Underground propane tank #20  
To change this question slightly, I have a propane tank on the property that has been abandoned by the company that installed it. The original company has been sold a few times and whenever I asked them to remove it, they did nothing. The company that I presently use has offered to fill it if I wanted, but it hasn't been used in about 10 years. It isn't rusted or damaged in any way. What is the advisability of this?
Forgot to mention, this tank is about 10' long and 4 1/2' in diameter. I believe that it is 500 gallons.
 

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