Understanding Stray Voltage

   / Understanding Stray Voltage #41  
See "step potential".
The way to prevent stray voltage in barns is to make sure there are no potential differences. You have to connect every conductor (water line, vacuum line, steel construction) that has the risk to carry a potential to a central point. This central point is also connected to the ground rod. Every electrical equipment that is used is also connected to ground through the ground wire.
It is important to connect the rebar/mesh in the concrete floor/foundation and steel constructions with the central point. A stray voltage is no longer a problem because it is impossible to have a potential difference. ( the voltage on the cows front and rear legs will always be the same ) even a lightning strike causes no potential difference. This is code in Europe. In addition: the whole barn is protected by Ground Fault Interrupters with a 0.03 Amp sensitivity. The 0.03 Amp GFI will not trip "all the time" because only plastic enclosures are used. The ground rod resistance in the "ground" circuit is not allowed to be higher than 50 ohms, so the fault voltage on metal parts will never be higher than 25 volts for a maximum of 0.02 seconds.
The 25 volts in barns is half of what is allowed in homes. The rationale for this is that animals don't wear footware and cannot communicate danger. By the way, the 0.03 GFI prevents a lot of barn fires!
The biggest problem in preventing stray voltage in barns is that the barn is built without anticipating stray voltage.
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #42  
So, just to be clear.

You can't bond the neutral and electrical ground at the sub panel. And I am guessing that it's a safety concern that if you broke the neutral, the ground conductor. would assume that role.

So taking things one step farther. If a device in the barn had neutral and electrical ground tied together, that would be the same as it being bonded at the panel, but would not cause the problems being experienced. Or?

Yes.

The neutral and ground are bonded at the MAIN panel. From that point on, in all sub-panels, they are isolated.

Glad you found your problem.
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #43  
Troubleshooting 101 - cut the problem in half.

That is, turn off your main panel and see if the problem persists.
If yes, then you got big problems. :laughing:
If no, then turn it back on and shut off half the breakers and see if the problem persists.
If yes, the problem is in the half that are still on.
If no, the problem is in the half you turned off.
Proceed with turning off half the breakers left in the problem group.
Repeat till the problem circuit is isolated.

On a 40 breaker panel the most you'd have to do is 20, 10, 5, 3, 2,1..... so 6 tests to isolate down to the problem circuit.

At least, that's what I've been doing for years on situations like this.
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #44  
I see no mention of the most simple test; stick a outlet checker in each receptacle section and see what the lights show. An open neutral can cause your symptoms. Is your metal building, both skin and frame grounded? It is a huge antenna/receptor of stray currents in the air from something you have no control over. Do you have the required GFCIs for each circuit and/or outlet? They should trip. Have you sunk a ground rod close to the water receptacle and tested between the water and the ground with the heater in it. What happens when you disconnect the heater? Comb every appliance, equipment, and lights in and on the barn looking for something miss-wired. Fluorescent and other HID lights can do strange things. Animals can detect minute voltages that we cannot.

Ron
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #45  
So, just to be clear.

You can't bond the neutral and electrical ground at the sub panel. And I am guessing that it's a safety concern that if you broke the neutral, the ground conductor. would assume that role.

So taking things one step farther. If a device in the barn had neutral and electrical ground tied together, that would be the same as it being bonded at the panel, but would not cause the problems being experienced. Or?

They are separated to help with diagnosis. They are all bonded at the main and the the utility doesn’t have both.

With the power to the panel off. Check for voltage on the ground and neutral. If you see voltage on either pull that wire from the panel and see if it still has voltage. If it does the issue is toward the house.

From what I’ve skimmed from you so far it’s either a bad appliance on the house panel or the wires coming to the barn have an issue. Those are my SWAGs. Both of those issues are diagnosed by pulling (in the barn panel) the ground wire coming from the house.
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #46  
I am trying to help a neighbor. The cattle were not drinking from a pail with an approved heater. I gave him another brand new heater, same thing. I measured some voltage, from the ground of the receptacle to some tin on the shack leading into the barn.

I installed a temporary cheater plug, removing the ground and for the time being, the animals drank from the pail.

I noticed there was no ground rod at the barn. The barn is fed underground from a house panel a hundred yards away.

We installed a ten foot ground rod at the barn. I was shocked (pun intended) to still see 7 volts between electrical ground and the tin on the building. That tin is apparently in good contact with Earth Ground.

I understand electrical stuff, and have tried reading up on tingle voltage and stray voltage, but I really don't understand what's happening. Or how to correct it. There are Reactor Filters, which are apparently now seldom used anymore and hence no longer made by Hammond, but I understand that even less.
Have his local power company come out and do a stray voltage test.In my area they are free.
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #47  
The most recent NEC requires that any sub-panels have the neutrals isolated and the only place where the neutrals and the grounds are connected is at the first is connection point (which is generally your primary breaker panel).
Hence, per the current NEC you should have two hots, a neutral and a ground going from the main panel to any and also panels including sub-panels in remote buildings.

Aaron Z

This guy is correct. All sub panels in out buildings fed from your main service panel shall have separate neutral and ground terminals not connected (bonded) to each other. All sub panels in out buildings shall have at least 2 ground rods or equivalent as well.

Master electrician
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #48  
my understanding,

at one time the statement considered true, was electricity finds the path of least resistance,
the true statement is it will find all paths.

the neutral is a current carrying conductor, (that is in common with the ground) it caries current just like the hots in the panel, same voltages and amps,

the reason why the neutrals and grounds are separated, is so the ground does not become a current carrying conductor,

but the reason grounds all connected in the newer NEC, is to create a ground plane of equal potential,

say you have number of panels, and there all separate ground and bonded to the natural, do to changes in the earth, and resistance in the wires, you will find different potentials, if all the grounds/earths are bonded, then you make a net, of equal potentials,

according to the NEC, all metal is to be bonded, and then bonded to the earth as well, if a building has any utilities or water lines it is to be grounded and the panel is to treated a sub panel, (a 4 wire system),

most older farms, have a meter pole and usually it is a distribution pole or point, as well, and each buildings electrical is treated as it own main panel, in most instances the NEC today requires a 4 wire system, in it distribution system on a private place,

one can have stray voltage from power lines, as they are grounded as well, and there can be leakage or a path from power lines many miles a way traveling under the earth back to the point of distribution or the point of generation, and at times it can be a cause of stray voltage, by placing the ground rods and making ground plane that stray voltage is then equalized, in that area,

livestock barns under current code are to be built with a wire mesh that is embedded with the concrete floors that are bonded to ground, and any metal in the buildings, to make a equalized plane, same with swimming pools. all water lines and utilities are to be bonded as well, as they can create an unequal potentials,


(in the case of this discussion, with ground and neutral being bonded, and a stray voltage was created,

I would reinspect the ground wire for secure connections working clear throughout the electrical system, as more than likely there is some point of resistance to shunt the current back through the ground/earth,

(back in the 70's when the ground prong was introduced many a receptacle was what was called a boot leg ground where the neutrals was ran to the ground prong as well, or if a line was extended the ground was connected to the neutral. (since it was not understood by many, the thought was if the ground/earth was connected at the main panel and or meter, (in there thinking it was the equivalent to the same thing, so why not just connect it downstream in the system (there all going to the same place),

the ground does two things one makes a ground potential that is equal to the neutral, and second it give a place to drain off excess current so there is not an unequal potentials, and sometimes even will trip a breaker if there is a direct short, (many times does not happen because of resistance in the earth/soils),

the ground is there (example), if your dryer sitting on a concrete floor, (concrete conducts nearly as well as the earth does, may better), and say the dryer is on rubber feet, something shorts out to the frame of the machine, the frame of that dryer is now the same as the hot side of the power line, 120 volts, you walk up bear footed and open up the door of the dryer, you will get bit a good one as you just became the ground line, now if it is grounded properly the ground will drain off the voltage protecting you or you loved ones, and in a situation like this most likely pop the breaker as it will follow the grounding wire back and over load the breaker,

the problem with the ground/earth and the neutral being connected, is if a fault is found in the neutral line it will make the ground/earth in to a current conducting line, thus possibly creating the stray voltage problem discussed here,

I hope I made this as clear as mud,
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage #49  
I am trying to help a neighbor. The cattle were not drinking from a pail with an approved heater. I gave him another brand new heater, same thing. I measured some voltage, from the ground of the receptacle to some tin on the shack leading into the barn.

I installed a temporary cheater plug, removing the ground and for the time being, the animals drank from the pail.

I noticed there was no ground rod at the barn. The barn is fed underground from a house panel a hundred yards away.

We installed a ten foot ground rod at the barn. I was shocked (pun intended) to still see 7 volts between electrical ground and the tin on the building. That tin is apparently in good contact with Earth Ground.

I understand electrical stuff, and have tried reading up on tingle voltage and stray voltage, but I really don't understand what's happening. Or how to correct it. There are Reactor Filters, which are apparently now seldom used anymore and hence no longer made by Hammond, but I understand that even less.

So did the garage door opener solve this issue, or was it a separate issue?
 
   / Understanding Stray Voltage
  • Thread Starter
#50  
Thanks for the help. I have been away and need to sit down and read the posts.
 

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