Update on injector pump oil

George_Martin · Oct 31, 2005

The oil finally started coming out of the overflow of my injector pump at about seven ounces. Quite a big difference from the 2 to 3 ounces that came out when I pulled the drain plug on my new 284 with 20 hours. I guess this is a real testament on checking all fluids on new tractors especially since the Chinese lubricants may not be the best.

JINMA224XR · Oct 31, 2005

The oil finally started coming out of the overflow of my injector pump at about seven ounces. Quite a big difference from the 2 to 3 ounces that came out when I pulled the drain plug on my new 284 with 20 hours. I guess this is a real testament on checking all fluids on new tractors 

Hey George,

Just changed out the Fuel Injector Pump Oil also, on my 224. I did as Greg suggested and changed over to the Air Compressor Oil/Campbell Hausfeld Brand. At Wal Mart, it is 2 dollars for a pint. There are 2 drain plugs on the Fuel Injector pump. One on the bottom of the Overflow side and One on the bottom of the Fill side. I poured in the whole Pint, nothing was coming out, but after walking back from the trash can to discard the empty pint container, I noticed that it had started dripping from the overflow. I let it continue to drip overnight to make sure that the oil was at the correct level.

I was also warned against using a detergent oil, as one has said, that a detergent oil, keeps the debris suspended, rather than a non detergent oil, letting the debris, fall to the bottom. Also, I read on the Air Compressor oil container, and it said using a multigrad oil, can cause carbon to form. Just a thought.

Heck, I really don't know which is the best oil to use in the Fuel Injector Pump, but Greg, seems to know, what he is talking about.

I also noticed that the Air Compressor Oil, is very very clear.

Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

3RRL · Oct 31, 2005

This is certainly true. It was a good thing many members suggested to "be sure to have your dealer fill the tractor with all oils and grease" and then "you follow up behind them to check yourself." My KAMA 554 came to me without hardly any grease in the front end drive system. I went through 2 large tubes of grease before I got the knuckle joints and the outside front hubs to sqeeze out grease. Worse, I have greased the 4WD "T" joints (inside of the wheels) and have yet to figure out where it is coming out?
Does anyone know how much grease those take? Each time I use the tractor I push in about 20 pumps of grease there and still no noticeable exit grease.

3RRL · Oct 31, 2005

I have not checked the injector pump oil on my KAMA yet since I have not been up to my property since the last posts. I found out some interesting information from other members.
I did however, check every other level on the tractor. They were all filled except the tractor hydraulic reservoir was quite low. I used AW32 to add a couple of pints until the dipstick showed a reading.

JINMA224XR · Oct 31, 2005

I have not checked the injector pump oil on my KAMA yet since I have not been up to my property since the last posts. I found out some interesting information from other members. 

Hey Rob,

Mine, does not have a dipStick, for checking. Only 2 drain plugs and the fill plug on mine is, by removing the small screw in breather. Mine is a Jinma 224, and it may be a little bit different on your Kama. But GregG, will know for sure, as I think that he also has a 554Kama or maybe it is a 454, can't remember exactly, but he should be able to steer you in the right direction.

Tie a string around your finger to remember. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

3RRL · Oct 31, 2005

Indeed, Greg has been very helpful on the boards.
I'll have to do it this weekend to check it out. I'm bringing up compressor oil, now that I'm convinced on using that as well. My point is that my tractor was not serviced as thoroughly as it should have been by the dealer. I fully expected to deal with some problems on the tractor because I got a great deal and it is a Chinese tractor. But to ship it out to me with low fluids and grease was not right. Just asking to have a major breakdown if it was not checked.

It started when I read a sticker on the Koyker Loader to check and tighten the main bolt. It was tight so I started to check every single bolt I could find on the tractor itself. Several had worked their way loose and many took a couple of wrench turns to torque down. Took me about 3-1/2 hours to work my way around the tractor.(I'm slow and old) That's when I only had about 15 hours on it.
Then I started with checking the fluid levels as posted above. By the way, my dealer told me I did NOT have to change fluids until the first 100 hrs on it. How do you feel about that?

JINMA224XR · Oct 31, 2005

Then I started with checking the fluid levels as posted above. By the way, my dealer told me I did NOT have to change fluids until the first 100 hrs on it. How do you feel about that? 

Hey Rob,

Personally, I think that 100 hours is too long, on the original fluids.

On mine, I also found some reservoirs, either too full or too low. I attempted to drain some of the over full engine oil out, but let out too much. So I didn't know exactly what oil, was in there, and I just drained it out and put my oil in. On the Hydraulics, they were allready too low, so, once again, not knowing which oil they had in there, I just drained it out and put my oil in. The transmission oil, was at the correct level, so I waited for about 40 hours to change the transmission oil out in mine.

On the beginning Oils, I was told to change out the engine oil at around the first 10 to 20 hours and then pickup, with the maintenance schedule as per the Engine Operating manual's instructions. There have been several posts on pulling the Hydralic pumps intake strainer to clean and check for small metal particles, that might restrict the oil's passage, especially, when using a front end loader.

Personally, I do whatever, my intuition, tells me to do, to stay prudently safe, and to try and get as much durability out of my tractor as humanly possible.

Probably as long as the tractor has adequate and clean lubrication, that is really the most important thing, but sometimes, I do a little bit extra, just to try and Hedge my bet.

Just be careful, when greasing not to put too much grease and blow a seal. When I'm not sure about how much grease, or if it is allready full, then I use my "Feel Technique", to either stop or to put more. Using my manual grease gun, when I start to feel a little bit of back pressure, then I stop pumping. On some of the greaseing points however, there is no back pressure felt at all. 2 of those points on my tractor, are at the Rear Wheel Axles. So when i grease those 2 fittings, I just put about 10 pumps in each and forget it.

The weather has finally started to cool off a bit where I am, and I am starting to do a complete service on the fluids and to retorque my headbolts, check valves, etc, etc., it will be a lot of fun, and I will be in my own element, while listening to the football games and music on the radio, in the garage. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

3RRL · Oct 31, 2005

Hi Joe,
That's pretty much how I feel about it and that's good advice.
I'm planning to do a service (change all the fluids) now. You mentioned "putting in about 10 pumps" in those areas that have no backpressure. I know this is probably OK, but normally greased joints and bearings need to be adequately greased because there is no flow such as in closed oil reservoir lubrication.
I build systems where grease is used in my plastic injection molds that I've specifically designed to have some "backpressure" when full with grease. Otherwise you risk the chance of not getting all the moving componants and have pre-mature wear in those areas.
And unlike oil lubrication, for faster moving parts, grease will lose it's viscosity when heat is applied and tend to drip down into whatever reservoir the components are housed in. The pressure build up is not nearly as great as in a closed oil system. That's why I'm concerned about getting enough grease to those front "T" joints on the KAMA.
But...then again...that's why I only grease 10 or 20 pumps so far...Ha!

greg_g · Oct 31, 2005

( I was also warned against using a detergent oil, as one has said, that a detergent oil, keeps the debris suspended, rather than a non detergent oil, letting the debris, fall to the bottom. Also, I read on the Air Compressor oil container, and it said using a multigrad oil, can cause carbon to form. )

I'm pretty sure I know where that old wive's tale came from, but he's not allowed to post here anymore. You should have been warned against using NON-detergent oil. You WANT all that compressor carbon "suspended" by the oil, so it doesn't turn into shellac. Multi-grades are detergent oils, so they're better than straight non-detergent 30 weight. Consider compressor oil as EXTRA detergent oil - keeping the carbon suspended BETTER than simple multigrade detergent oil.

Same thing with the engine, except it's diesel soot you want suspended - instead of compressor carbon. Uncontrolled diesel soot turns into oil pan sludge. Non-detergent single weight oils don't do good enough job (if at all). Whereas there are detergent single weights, multigrade engine oils give you the best of both worlds; detergent action AND all season use.

//greg//

Soundguy · Nov 1, 2005

( Consider compressor oil as EXTRA detergent oil )

Better check what you buy. Last air compressor I bought came with a bottle of 'compressor oil' manual stated to use that oil, OR non detergent 30w oil...

Soundguy

JINMA224XR · Nov 1, 2005

Consider compressor oil as EXTRA detergent oil - keeping the carbon suspended BETTER than simple multigrade detergent oil.


Hey Greg & Chris,

Ok, I'm thuroughly Confused now. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

On the Cambell Hausfeld container, it states that the compressor oil is a NonDetergent Oil ISO100. And it also warns not to use 10w30, which is a multigrade, and states that the 10w30, will cause carbon.

The Air Compressor that I bought about a year ago, states to use 30wgt NonDetergent Oil.

Can someone please straighten me out, or am I doomed to be confused on this forever.

I had thought, that I was using the very best lubricant, in the Fuel Injector Pump before, when I was using 30Wgt NonDetergent Oil. When I changed out the 30 wgt NonDetergent Oil, with about 100 hours on it. The oil that came out was exceptionally clean, about as clean, as if I had poured the oil, right out of a new container of oil. I'm sure that it had particles in it, but it looked very very clean to me.

Get your tractors running &
Have a nice day,
Joe /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Soundguy · Nov 1, 2005

My C&H manual states that it's recomende3d comp oil IS a 30wt non-det. Sounds like it jives with your info.

Soundguy

SkyPup · Nov 1, 2005

The reason for not using a detergent motor oil with surfactants in it is to keep it from foaming and causing the pump to suck air.....therefore you should specifically use a NON-detergent motor oil to prevent the pumping of air.

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

I think it's important to note that there are several different types of compressors, each with a specific oil requirement. The formulations of various compressor oils vary significantly depending on the type of compressor, reciprocating and rotary gas compressors - as well as what is being compressed. To confuse things even more, there are detergent type and non-detergent type compressor oils - not to mention synthetic and non-synthetic. It's all in the additives, and the most important additive to this discussion is the one that prevents carbon buildup. To confuse things even more, that additive is actually a detergent in its own right, even if it's IN an oil marked "non-detergent".

What I use is the type specified for reciprocating air compressors, the base oil being non-detergent. Our Chinese injection pumps are also of a reciprocating design, except they compress diesel fuel. Oil for a reciprocating compressor lubricates both the working parts AND the pressurized spaces in a compressor. Lubrication is required for the bearings, pistons, rings, cylinders and valves. That's apparently the low temperature job of the non-detergent base oil. But reciprocating compressor pistons and valves reach temperatures of 220C to 300C, and the oil film on the surfaces of these components must not form carbon. Hard carbon can jack open valves, which can cause a rapid increase in air delivery temperature. Worst case scenario, it can lead to glowing carbon particles in the delivery pipework and valve chamber and ultimately lead to an explosion. This is where the anti-carbon detergent additive goes to work (thus the "extra detergent" comment).

To the guy who I said was wrong about using non-detergent oil, I apologize for not being more specific. I still maintain you shouldn't just use any old non-detergent in a compressor (or injection pump). But you can use a non-detergent compressor oil that contains detergent anti-carbon additives.

To the rest of you, I'm sorry I didn't foresee a need for such detail when I made the initial compressor oil recommendation. In hindsight, it probably would have headed off some of the ensuing question marks.

//greg//

Ranch_Hand_Supp · Nov 1, 2005

This is not directed to anyone.....but back in the old days ......one of my jobs in my dads shop was to go get a quart of oil for one of his employees. There was only 2 weights of motor oil in the parts department...30 & 30HD.

Growing up in his shop I was schooled early that I did not put 30HD in anything that had been using plain 30....and if you did not know ??...you put plain 30 back in. The reason was that the HD would cut the stuff loose that the plain 30 leaves behind. HD became more popular and was found to be better and most wanted to to start out with 30HD then multia grades came. HD = No build up with proper oil service.

I have only used engine oil in Injection pumps and compressor oil in air compressors or 30 weight. Dont know about compressor oil in a injection pump?? I read that some are haveing no problems.

I would have to assume that what is being read on the back of the oil bottle is being related to what they MFD it for or recommending what to use in it .?

Ronald
Ranch Hand Supply

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

( The reason for not using a detergent motor oil with surfactants in it is to keep it from foaming and causing the pump to suck air.....therefore you should specifically use a NON-detergent motor oil to prevent the pumping of air. )

Don't tell that to the folks that actually MAKE detergent-type compressor oil !!!

//greg//

SPIKER · Nov 1, 2005

Greg:

not sure where you got the 2200C temp at, but that is 4000 degrees F. (actually 3992 degrees F but at that temp stone is liquid and I belive lava is somewhere in the 2500!3500 deg F range, pottery/china as in glass is heat cured at or below 22100 F and is litterly glowing red hot and is soft in a plastic way.

as for compressor oil the debate is a ford vs chevy thing. these (pumps) are actually less of a pump and more of a fluid displacement machine. they draw in fluid then displace it there is no COMPRESSION of the fluid but it simply builds pressure because of the "resistance to flow" this is standard mechanical (hydraulic principals) fluid is used in hydraulic systems because it does not compress it simply moves from the displacement of the pumps pistons to the valves and back to the resiviour building no PRESSURE untill something (valve or cylinder with resistance on it) slows the fluid and increases the pressure untill the resistance is moved or the pump is stalled.

ok now for my 2 cents worth. these pumps shouldn't build any kind of varnish or carbon build up as they are not actually in any kind of combustion process to build carbon up. carbon or varnish would only form under extreme conditions such as explosion residue (happens in the endine piston/cylinder) or when HIGH friction makes HIGH heat and actually burns some of the fluid/oil/fuel in minute quanities along the friction srfaces. these pumps use bearings to produce the flow and these don't produce that kind of friction. now if the injector oil got very low where the bearings was not running in the oil then possably some heating could happen and the buildup begines but that would be from neglect of checking or catrofic breakdown but probably not from the wrong oil.

anyhow I don't want to argue about it but as long as a good oil is used and it is not left to get fuel soaked then these pumps should run just fine with little discoleration of the oil ever happeneing... I use a semi synthetic type in mine and change it more often as it does get some fuel bypass into the pump as someplace there is a bit of a leak internally and the pump has been that way since new.

I also think we ALL can agree that what ever we put in these systems will be a lot better than what they use in china. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

MarkiM

tat2z1969 · Nov 1, 2005

I agree with Spiker.
The pump is not a compressor, in itself its more like a small engine that does not produce fire. For years until the computer controled truck diesel engines came out, all ran off the engine oil for the pumps, Mack, Butaha, Perkins, Ford International. all of them and they ran for hundreds of thousands of miles.
Cooking oil would be better than what China puts in them, yet the Chinese get good service out of the raw crap they use, so I wouldn't read to much into the oil to use in the injector pump. The most important thing is to service it and keep the oil clean, the book says once a year, for as little oil as it takes to fill 3 times a year wouldn't kill ya.
I read a lot of postings here and there, some get carried away with what to use, the Chinese wash their rad's out in a river, drain the engines and heat the water to put back in the engine, they heat the oil to get water out of it. I oil down my dirt road with better than they use in their tractors.
Good 15-40 in the engine and pump, 80-90 in the trans and front end, good old 32 in the hydraulics. I do use charged anti freeze since they have wet liners.

greg_g · Nov 1, 2005

( not sure where you got the 2200C temp at, but that is 4000 degrees F. (actually 3992 degrees F but at that temp stone is liquid and I belive lava is somewhere in the 2500!3500 deg F range, pottery/china as in glass is heat cured at or below 22100 F and is litterly glowing red hot and is soft in a plastic way.)

I fat fingered them - just like you did the "22100 F ". Fixed now.

( it simply builds pressure because of the "resistance to flow")

Um, excuse me. But isn't that sort of a definition of compression by itself? The injection pump builds up sufficient pressure via the hardlines to trip a compression spring (the resistance to flow) in the injector itself. I don't want to stray too far too long from Chinese tractors, but the new TDI has nearly 14,000 psi of pump side pressure (almost 20,000 injector side).

Tell me THAT's not compression.

//greg//

greg_g · Nov 2, 2005

( The pump is not a compressor, in itself its more like a small engine that does not produce fire. )

You guys can say tomahto, I'll say tomayto. Cuz to me an engine with cylinders/pistons/valves et cetera IS a compression device. It can't run without compression. Likewise, a fuel injection pump is a small compression engine - complete with cylinders/pistons/valves et cetera. Just no fire to burn off the carbon.

But hey, you guys use what you want. I'll stick with compressor oil.

//greg//