Using an app to determine proposed boundry lines

[paulsharvey]

Illinois was laid out with a compass and a 2 pole chain (33 feet). When I started working in 1984 we taped everything, a 100 foot long steel tape. Not bad for a lot in town but for a rural survey it wasn’t easy.

13.5 paces, if I remember right, counting just the even foot.

Also, although some Surveying is kinda interesting, hunting for old section corners deep in the woods; doing 50 ft or 100ft cross sections of roadways will make you want to jump in front of a semi. Edge of pavement, good, white line, good, centerline, good, edge line, good, fricking 13 shots and move down 50 ft and do it again, for Miles and Miles....

 

[Jstpssng]

I've seen descriptions referencing trees that were gone a hundred years earlier. E.g. "11 feet SSE of large chestnut..." and stone wall stones. Not the wall mind you, a stone in a wall that disappeared who knows how many winters ago due to freeze thaw.

I like reading old deed descriptions for entertainment as I find many of them amusing. However, putting money them, isn't something I would do, but we are all different.

All the best,

Peter

The best I've seen read something like "thence 100 rods to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon."

You actually would be surprised how often a good surveyor can find where that tree was 100 years ago.

I had a survey. He got a new survey (cost him a pretty penny), agreed with mine

A lot of people don't understand this about surveyors ( or appraisers).

 

[ponytug]

The best I've seen read something like "thence 100 rods to where the old cow lies down in the afternoon."
...

Ok, you win. That's the best that I've heard of.

After years of working with cows, I wonder how close I could have gotten...hmmm

All the best,

Peter

 

[newbury]

A description is one thing, a survey by a licensed surveyor is something else again. I have seen things go sideways, and not by readily overlooked amounts.

And surveyor's are not perfect. But I bet a lot of their mistakes go unnoticed for decades.
My house in Mississippi was surveyed. Reputable surveyor, used by govt. firms, decades of experience.
Turns the survey into the county via hardcopy, to me via email, I'm sitting in Virginia. I start going over it and something did not compute, ends up he flipped one of the measurements in the description and cut out a big portion of my lot.
Panic call him up, he had bought some new equipment he blamed it on.
Now if I hadn't caught it they might have to be working it out 50 years from now.
He had to go through the paperwork to get it corrected.

A lot of people don't understand this about surveyors ( or appraisers).

The 4 appraisers I've used in both Virginia and were marginal. The worst was the guy in Mississippi that valued my 5,000+ sq ft of workshops on 6" concrete floors, which included a 1 bedroom apartment, w/ stove, full bath, at $800, the same as he valued the 20x40 car canopy which was over sand.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

My same neighbor who I'm trying to buy land from, is giving me a small piece of land, 3000 sqft. It's costing me $1156 for the survey. The surveyor is only doing it because it was so easy, and he's teaching his grandson how to become a surveyor. The piece is roughly a triangle, 40x153x156. He is semi retired, only doing easy jobs for teaching.
Anyway, to go with the odd duck someone posted, this guy is like a detective in his research, our meetings last at least 45 minutes with the stories, tells of how he has been called into court as a expert in land cases. Never lost. He keeps a list of all the area surveyors taped to his drafting table light. 8 marked R for retired, 6 marked D for dead, and 3 marked A for active. No one wants to do the work anymore. No GPS for him. All transom? etc. Not sure what surveys go for in other parts, but I was quoted $4900 for a 7 acres, plus placement of monuments etc. This was the original deal I had with neighbor, before I decided to go for 12 acres. Not sure what the 12 acre open field will cost now.

 

[dodge man]

Transom is a window that can be opened over a doorway. Transit is an instrument used by a surveyor to measure angles.

 

[paulsharvey]

We are in process of buying 14 acre piece, just a mortage survey, was recently surveyed about 6 years, and got a quote of $3500; which funny enough was what I told wife it would probably be. The last company I worked for did inspection, utility locating, and survey, and although I'm Not a surveyor, we charged $2500/day, and around $250/hr for the office guy to that side. So, I think that quote is realistic, but monumenting isn't that big of deal.

IF you can get the same guy that did your original subdivision off the neighbors parent parcel, he can do the work cheaper, as he did all the leg work on tracking everything down for that. He would likely just reconfirm point, and add 4 more points; assuming things are pretty open, flat, and straight. I highly recommend digging out your old survey for your existing property and seeing if that guy is still working.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

We are in process of buying 14 acre piece, just a mortage survey, was recently surveyed about 6 years, and got a quote of $3500; which funny enough was what I told wife it would probably be. The last company I worked for did inspection, utility locating, and survey, and although I'm Not a surveyor, we charged $2500/day, and around $250/hr for the office guy to that side. So, I think that quote is realistic, but monumenting isn't that big of deal.

IF you can get the same guy that did your original subdivision off the neighbors parent parcel, he can do the work cheaper, as he did all the leg work on tracking everything down for that. He would likely just reconfirm point, and add 4 more points; assuming things are pretty open, flat, and straight. I highly recommend digging out your old survey for your existing property and seeing if that guy is still working.

The one who did our property is one of the retired... Only did corners, no sidelines or even reference marks on sidelines.
Slim pickings around here.

 

[paulsharvey]

The one who did our property is one of the retired... Only did corners, no sidelines or even reference marks on sidelines.
Slim pickings around here.

So, a typical survey, as in a mortage survey isn't going to do more than corners and check encroachment. They aren't going to put you a property line stake every 200 ft, or any of that, as part of a basic survey.

We kinda need to separate surveys into what I would call Construction staking vs mortage/real estate stuff. Sure, any surveyor can drop you some stakes, but what you need is corners set, legal description, and the documents required for the property split. Most guys will put a lathe and ribbon marking where they found the corner, but after 5 years, termites remove those. The corner itself should be pretty permanent, 5/8" rebar, nail and disc, 3/4" iron pipe, or 4x4 concrete monument with nail, and they are often about 4-6" below the surface, to help protect them; although that's not always the case.

For your future use, assuming a pretty rectangle property, if you have atleast 2 corners you can find, and a copy of the survey, you should be able to lay out anything you need with a 300 ft tape and a helper. If we are talking about a $300k home, close to required set backs, nope, hire a professional; but setting a fence line; find the corners; set back 6-12" and pull a string.

 

[ArlyA]

We are looking at properties and following this most interesting thread.

 

[dodge man]

There is nothing wrong with land owners trying to survey their own property, no laws or rules against it. Obviously it carries less weight than a land surveyors work does. Like already said, finding the corners is key.

Land owners carry a lot of weight when it comes to the results of a survey. Them accepting the results of the survey and honoring the results make the survey valid. I got my license in 1992 and would estimate I’ve done maybe around a 1000 surveys. I can only think of two cases where the owner ignored the results of my work.

 

[Joel/ak]

MI has a GIS website (by county) that shows property lines and general owners info.

Actually quite accurate.....if the property has been surveyed.

Our lines are very accurate.

 

[paulsharvey]

MI has a GIS website (by county) that shows property lines and general owners info.

Actually quite accurate.....if the property has been surveyed.

Our lines are very accurate.

So, you have to watch out for basemap shift. Meaning, sure the lines are accurately spaced on the GIS, But the aerial map is out of wack. So, you might be able to clearly see on a GIS program that the power pole is at the property corner according to the aerial and lines; but in truth, between the aerial being fitted to GiS or whatever, maybe that power pole is 10 ft on other property. I routinely see it, where property appraiser GIS doesn't have the right of way accurately, and therefore, doesn't have adjacent property accurate either.

 

[EddieWalker]

MI has a GIS website (by county) that shows property lines and general owners info.

Actually quite accurate.....if the property has been surveyed.

Our lines are very accurate.

I wish my county here in East Texas was semi close to accurate. My place is made up of 3 parcels. One is just an acre, another is 23 acres. On their map, both are the same size.

My neighbor has a lot more land then I do. On the County Website, he has parcels that are just a couple acres that are bigger then parcels over 40 acres. It also shows our property line going right through the middle of my pond. But I know where the corner is, the pin is still there, and that line is hundreds of feet away from my pond.

My neighbor also has two natural gas pipelines going through his property. They where doing some clearing on the pipeline and using a Surveyor to mark where their right of way is for the pipeline. They got it wrong and cleared a bunch of my land, way off from the pipeline. Not a big deal, but kind of shocking that they where so far away from the actual pipeline and never questioned whey they where mowing over 100 feet away from the pipeline, when it's only a 50 foot wide easement.

The good part of that story is when I talked to them about it, they agreed to do a popery survey and find my corners for me so they would know where the property line is. Turned out the pins where still there, but not where me or my neighbor thought they where. In the end, my neighbor and I where very happy because of the survey, and I'm able to build my fence on the property line without any questions or doubts from him.

 

[Mtsoxfan]

In my area, Parcel Viewer VT is one option. Satellite view with a boundary grid laid over. This is what you have to acknowledge to move on...

Vermont Parcel Viewer | Disclaimer
Parcel data are general in nature and do not represent survey-grade boundary information. Substantial inaccuracies in boundary lines or Grand List attributes should be brought to the attention of the appropriate municipal clerk. Current parcel data are linked with the 2023 Grand List, reflective of April 1st of that year. Not all parcels have matching grand list entries. See the Vermont Parcel Program for more information.

A rough guestimate on my part, is one of the lines is 30' off. Another is spot on.

 

[dodge man]

I helped put together our county’s GIS. We drew all the boundaries and they supplied all the deeds to us. We also did ground control for the aerial fly over so the aerial photos are based on real world coordinates. The problem is there is no way to tie a persons deed into the aerial photos unless you went out a took GPS shots on the property corners. In other words it’s just a pretty picture.

Another issue is a lack of property corners. I don’t know an exact number but I’d estimate more than 75% of the property corners in my area are gone.

 

[Joel/ak]

So, you have to watch out for basemap shift. Meaning, sure the lines are accurately spaced on the GIS, But the aerial map is out of wack. So, you might be able to clearly see on a GIS program that the power pole is at the property corner according to the aerial and lines; but in truth, between the aerial being fitted to GiS or whatever, maybe that power pole is 10 ft on other property. I routinely see it, where property appraiser GIS doesn't have the right of way accurately, and therefore, doesn't have adjacent property accurate either.

Thanks. I didn't realize that, I'll have to take a closer look and check it out

 

[JamesHW]

I’ve been laying out our property in NY w/ a view towards subdividing and have had some success using a drawing program (Procreate) to layer multiple images including aerials (mostly Google Earth), screenshots of LiDAR and wetlands (The National Map) and County maps of properties that the GIS online maps are based on. I take the wetland in their hydrography layers with a grain of salt as the stream paths seem to be offset 50 feet from the course plainly visible in the LiDar. The older topo maps (available as an alternate base map layer in the Map) were more accurate as far as stream paths. Likely some sort of base map shift like Paul Harvey cautioned about. The hydrography also contains accurate catchment maps based on the LiDar, allowing the ability to measure areas to estimate how much water it receives.

The ability to adjust transparency of the layers in Procreate in order to overlay the lot lines from the County property maps, matching up roads and terrain as accurately as possible. The northern and southern borders align with the Kayderosseros Patent survey, which was completed and filed in 1770. Centuries of timber harvests and clearings have built up berms along those lines in places where slash and roots have been discarded along with old border trees not being cleared, old roads and fence lines corresponding to the 1770 survey providing evidence of occupation that is visible on the LiDar images. Our S-W back corner is memorialized by a galvanized post set in the 1960’s survey sits on the edge of a ravine has helped tighten the accuracy of my estimates by comparing it to the LiDar.

One oddity we ran into was our north-south rear property line, that I had presumed was at a right angle to the northern and southern lines that correspond to the 1770 Patent survey lines, turned out to not be a right angle after all. In laying out division lines in Procreate I used the rear line as a reference. I also created lines using the N-W property lines as reference and rotating them 90 degrees in the app, resulting in a subtle difference in some lines that made everything look caddywhompus until I discovered the difference. I researched old maps and found that when the original 1855 survey was conducted the N-S rear line likely ran at a perfect right angle to the E-W line, but improvements when the road was first paved in the 1920’s cut about 50 feet off the SW corner of the property to smooth a sudden 35 degree turn in the State road, moving the S-E corner 50 foot east. So the 1960’s survey was accurate insofar as measuring rods and chains from today’s road. Changing the road path and so moving the rear corner over added a narrow slice of about an acre to our property, more or less. It’s mostly ravine and wetlands and no habitation nearby, so really of no import.

 

[lman]

There is nothing wrong with land owners trying to survey their own property, no laws or rules against it. Obviously it carries less weight than a land surveyors work does. Like already said, finding the corners is key.

Land owners carry a lot of weight when it comes to the results of a survey. Them accepting the results of the survey and honoring the results make the survey valid. I got my license in 1992 and would estimate I’ve done maybe around a 1000 surveys. I can only think of two cases where the owner ignored the results of my work.

Writing the legal description on a new parcel is challenging though.

 

[paulsharvey]

Dodge brings up a good point. When doing road work and utility work, in the piles of debris, you will often see some 4"×4" concrete property corners that got ripped out as part of the work.

We really do need to separate Lay-Out from Mortage Surveying, as well as legal description. Our OP is trying to separate a property from a parent parcel. No way in heck in 2024, even if accepted by county, would I ever have two neighbors write one of those, 'from fence meandering northwordly to the big tree, and turning westward toward the rock' kinda descriptions. You mention the neighbor kinda being long in the tooth, think his heirs won't fight you over that?