UTV's and ATV's general discussion.

[Grumpycat]

Bull crap, I have seen first hand the reduction in range in cold weather.

Please elucidate.

What? Where? When?

Or did you just see it on TV?

What do you know of the battery in the vehicle cited in this thread?

You haven’t stated point blank the EV utility vehicle will have less than half the range in cold temperatures. Based on what evidence? You seem to believe such a statement can be made without evidence, that somehow everyone knows what you say to be true. You are upset that anyone dares challenge your statement.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

An electric UTV would be ideal for our usage, which is short drives only, but...

As I recall they don't like being charged when it's cold. Okay, that could be worked around, but I wouldn't want it parked in the barn. Not in general, and especially not when it's charging.

And it's a moot point anyway since there doesn't seem to be anything available with a heated cab and a 5' or so bed.

 

[John_Mc]

Thanks. Too bad they don’t say what type of lithium Ion batteries. I’m not interested in anything other than LFP for anything bigger than a power tool.

All the Polaris site says is Lithium Ion. Everything I've seen says that they are NMC batteries (Nickel-Managnese-Cobalt, a type of Lithium Ion battery). However, this is not from an official Polaris source.

LiFePo4 batteries weigh more than NMC batteries of the same capacity (typical LiFePo4 batteries are 130-150 Wh/kg. NMC batteries are 160-190 Wh/kg). This is probably one of the reasons why they have not been more widely adopted by EV manufacturers. Neither LiFePo nor NMC are great in extreme temperatures, though supposedly LiFePo4 can take higher temperatures than NMC. (not sure who wins out in the low temperature category.)

 

[John_Mc]

As I recall they don't like being charged when it's cold. Okay, that could be worked around, but I wouldn't want it parked in the barn. Not in general, and especially not when it's charging.

Most well designed EVs, including the Polaris Kinetic include a battery heater to warm the battery for charging when needed. The battery management system will not charge when they are too cold.

The Polaris EV Range FAQs note that for maximum range (and best battery lifetime) you should activate the battery heater for a few minutes before operation any time the temperature is below 50˚F. You do this by either turning on the key switch or plugging in the charger.

Another interesting bit of information on range from their FAQ:

Premium trim: Up to *45 miles

With the XP Kinetic Ultimate, you can achieve a range of up to *80 miles of light-duty use. Range can depend heavily on what you are doing, so here is a list of ranges you can expect while performing certain tasks.

Property Maintenance: 70-80 est. miles
Farming & Ranching: 60-80 est. miles
Hunting: 50-70 est. miles
Trail Riding: 40-60 est. miles

Without some additional description of what they mean by each of those activities, I don't find that table all that useful to get a specific estimate, but at least there is some indication of what something other than "light-duty use" will give for range.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Please elucidate.

What? Where? When?

Or did you just see it on TV?

What do you know of the battery in the vehicle cited in this thread?

You haven’t stated point blank the EV utility vehicle will have less than half the range in cold temperatures. Based on what evidence? You seem to believe such a statement can be made without evidence, that somehow everyone knows what you say to be true. You are upset that anyone dares challenge your statement.

Come on grumpy, batteries loose capacity when they are cold are you denying that?

• Lithium-Ion Batteries:
  • Lithium-ion batteries, commonly used in smartphones, laptops, and electric vehicles, can lose 20-40% of their capacity at freezing temperatures (0°C or 32°F).
  • At very low temperatures (-20°C or -4°F), the capacity loss can be even greater.
• Lead-Acid Batteries:
  • Lead-acid batteries, often used in cars, lose about 20% of their capacity at 32°F (0°C) and up to 50% at -22°F (-30°C).

 

[LouNY]

Please elucidate.

What? Where? When?

Or did you just see it on TV?

What do you know of the battery in the vehicle cited in this thread?

You haven’t stated point blank the EV utility vehicle will have less than half the range in cold temperatures. Based on what evidence? You seem to believe such a statement can be made without evidence, that somehow everyone knows what you say to be true. You are upset that anyone dares challenge your statement.

My wife's car is an electric, a 2025 Equinox EV. It is a decent car with good power and acceleration.
When the temperature dropped below 14F the "fuel" efficacy dropped from 3.2-3.6 miles per kwh to 1.2 - 1.6 kwh. I drove it yesterday in 32F and got 2.2-2.6 miles per kwh.

As I said the mileage range tanks when it gets cold out and it hasn't even been run in sub zero yet.

So yea I have seen the effects, pure and simple in normal service.

 

[John_Mc]

Come on grumpy, batteries loose capacity when they are cold are you denying that?

• Lithium-Ion Batteries:
  • Lithium-ion batteries, commonly used in smartphones, laptops, and electric vehicles, can lose 20-40% of their capacity at freezing temperatures (0°C or 32°F).
  • At very low temperatures (-20°C or -4°F), the capacity loss can be even greater.
• Lead-Acid Batteries:
  • Lead-acid batteries, often used in cars, lose about 20% of their capacity at 32°F (0°C) and up to 50% at -22°F (-30°C).

Our experience with my wife's Chevy bolt seems to agree with that. In the Winter, we get about 55-60% of the range we do in the Spring/Summer/Fall (assuming we are not using the AC). However, there are a couple more factors for us than just battery efficiency: running the heater sucks the range down significantly, and the switch to studded snow tires in the winter from the all-season, low rolling resistance tires we use the rest of the year also affects the range.

I have not tried to determine the difference between running at +/-20-25˚F and running at +/-0˚F. Since our temperatures tend to vary widely in the winter, there just is not a great opportunity to nail this down.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Our experience with my wife's Chevy bolt seems to agree with that. In the Winter, we get about 55-60% of the range we do in the Spring/Summer/Fall (assuming we are not using the AC). However, there are a couple more factors for us than just battery efficiency: running the heater sucks the range down significantly, and the switch to studded snow tires in the winter from the all-season, low rolling resistance tires we use the rest of the year also affects the range.

for sure ... I don't know why they don't put diesel heater in them, like cars from the 70's and 80's had....

 

[hayden]

Come on grumpy, batteries loose capacity when they are cold are you denying that?

• Lithium-Ion Batteries:
  • Lithium-ion batteries, commonly used in smartphones, laptops, and electric vehicles, can lose 20-40% of their capacity at freezing temperatures (0°C or 32°F).
  • At very low temperatures (-20°C or -4°F), the capacity loss can be even greater.
• Lead-Acid Batteries:
  • Lead-acid batteries, often used in cars, lose about 20% of their capacity at 32°F (0°C) and up to 50% at -22°F (-30°C).

That’s true, but I think the real range losses come from cab and battery heating. Now this machine is cab-less, still. I think grumpy is just living up to his screen name.

 

[Rockbadchild]

That’s true, but I think the real range losses come from cab and battery heating. Now this machine is cab-less, still. I think grumpy is just living up to his screen name.

Its exponential not linear it depends on what temperture we are talking about, and the specific battery but yes cab and battery heating are also a major component. At 0 degree C its marginal but -20 degree Celsius the lost is substantial.


its very technical but that's the study, it highlights that at -20°C, lithium-ion batteries experience a significant reduction in efficiency due to decreased ionic conductivity and slower electrochemical reactions. Capacity can drop as much as as 50% of the rated value depending on the specific battery design and materials.

Lithium-Ion Batteries under Low-Temperature Environment: Challenges and Prospects - PMC

Lithium-ion batteries (LIBs) are at the forefront of energy storage and highly demanded in consumer electronics due to their high energy density, long battery life, and great flexibility. However, LIBs usually suffer from obvious capacity reduction, ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[DK35vince]

Yeah that doesn't make much sense at all. I didn't have Polaris on my list and sounds like it'll never make it on the list haha!

Not all Polaris models do that, It depends on the model.
I have a Polaris RZR 900s, and it has engine braking all the way to a stop.
It does not free wheel at slower speeds.

 

[nforktractor]

I have a 2018 Polaris XP1000, it has engine braking, pretty stout, you take your foot off the throttle and slows right down, even going down a hill.

 

[deserteagle71]

I have a 2018 Polaris XP1000, it has engine braking, pretty stout, you take your foot off the throttle and slows right down, even going down a hill.

My understanding is that it is an option on most of the Polaris models. The clutch assembly that allows engine braking is available from Polaris:

My question is...why is this an option when all the other manufacturers have it as standard equipment? Why would anyone want a machine that provides no engine braking going down a steep hill?

 

[Grumpycat]

Its exponential not linear it depends on what temperture we are talking about, and the specific battery but yes cab and battery heating are also a major component. At 0 degree C its marginal but -20 degree Celsius the lost is substantial.

its very technical but that's the study, it highlights that at -20°C, lithium-ion batteries experience a significant reduction in efficiency due to decreased ionic conductivity and slower electrochemical reactions. Capacity can drop as much as as 50% of the rated value depending on the specific battery design and materials.

Again, what do you know of the cited vehicle?

It doesn't have a heated cab.

We don't know if it has any thermal battery management. We do know when used lithium chemistry batteries self-heat. We don't know what battery chemistry that vehicle uses.

Is not as if diesel is a delight in cold temperatures. But somehow one makes do and overlooks this issue.

I'm just saying, "Don't tell us what you don't know. Just because all your friends say it doesn't make it true."

 

[Grumpycat]

Come on grumpy, batteries loose capacity when they are cold are you denying that?

• Lithium-Ion Batteries:
  • Lithium-ion batteries, commonly used in smartphones, laptops, and electric vehicles, can lose 20-40% of their capacity at freezing temperatures (0°C or 32°F).
  • At very low temperatures (-20°C or -4°F), the capacity loss can be even greater.
• Lead-Acid Batteries:
  • Lead-acid batteries, often used in cars, lose about 20% of their capacity at 32°F (0°C) and up to 50% at -22°F (-30°C).

Wonderful! Generic information from an uncited source!

ICE loses range too. At 40°F my Subaru got 26 MPG at 70 MPH. Or 32 MPG at 70°F. Miles Divided By Gallons, not the number shown on the instrument panel.

Now what battery is in the cited vehicle?

And based on the data you copy/pasted are you going to abandon your ICE vehicles in the cold because the lead-acid starter battery's capacity diminishes? Clearly it is unusable because capacity is no longer 100%.

Or, maybe it is just something you live with?

 

[Code54]

Some of the Polaris models used to freewheel below a certain speed so the “trick” was to touch the gas to keep the RPMs up and keep the engine brake engaged.

 

[Eagle1]

Some of the Polaris models used to freewheel below a certain speed so the “trick” was to touch the gas to keep the RPMs up and keep the engine brake engaged.

Our Brute Force is like that you have to keep the engine RPM above 1500 to have braking. If the centrifugal clutch disengages you free wheel down the hill

 

[Too many Kubotas]

ICE loses range too. At 40°F my Subaru got 26 MPG at 70 MPH. Or 32 MPG at 70°F. Miles Divided By Gallons, not the number shown on the instrument panel.

My vehicles also lose a few mpg in the winter, but I strongly suspect that it's because the fluids just don't flow as well when it's zero degrees. After 20 miles or so the mileage tends to increase as things warm up.

The engine itself? I don't think the ambient temp can be too cool for a gas engine. They run better with cold air going down the intake tract. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many so-called cold air intakes for sale (many are worse than OE, but that's a different story).

Also, nobody would use charge air coolers (usually referred to as intercoolers, which they normally are not) if it didn't help to have lower intake temps.

 

[Grumpycat]

My vehicles also lose a few mpg in the winter, but I strongly suspect that it's because the fluids just don't flow as well when it's zero degrees. After 20 miles or so the mileage tends to increase as things warm up.

The engine itself? I don't think the ambient temp can be too cool for a gas engine. They run better with cold air going down the intake tract. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many so-called cold air intakes for sale (many are worse than OE, but that's a different story).

Also, nobody would use charge air coolers (usually referred to as intercoolers, which they normally are not) if it didn't help to have lower intake temps.

Cold air intakes get more air mass in the same space at the same time. More oxygen for combustion, more opportunity to make power.

Intercoolers are used on turbocharged or supercharged engines because the compressed air rises in temperature. Cool it a bit and once again one can get more air mass in the combustion chamber.

There once was concern about carburetor air intake falling below 100°F and creating an icing condition as it accelerates and cools going through the throat of the carburetor. Have known several "geniuses" who removed the little hose between exhaust manifold and air filter intake horn who then had unexplained problems on longer trips. Unexplained until one looked down the carburetor throat.

Carburetor icing is a major concern for piston powered aircraft.

But once again back to my original theme, all this is theoretical. In engineering we guess these things this way, then actually try it. Doesn't always work the way we expected. I never expected the Subaru to reliably get so much poorer mileage in cool weather. No other vehicle I have owned has been so extreme. But this is actual real world data and not 29 year old living in mother's basement surfing the internet.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Wonderful! Generic information from an uncited source!

ICE loses range too. At 40°F my Subaru got 26 MPG at 70 MPH. Or 32 MPG at 70°F. Miles Divided By Gallons, not the number shown on the instrument panel.

Now what battery is in the cited vehicle?

And based on the data you copy/pasted are you going to abandon your ICE vehicles in the cold because the lead-acid starter battery's capacity diminishes? Clearly it is unusable because capacity is no longer 100%.

Or, maybe it is just something you live with?

nice to see you admit the facts