VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

[Ford850]

Now 2.1 million Audi vehicles are known to be affected.
VW has already said they tried 2 times to fix the tune to balance the power and MPGs, with the EPA requirements, and can't do it without sacrificing engine longevity. The hole keeps getting deeper for them. Even if they pay off all current owners, or buy those cars back, where do they go from here? That would leave them in a huge credit hole, if they were kept alive at all by the German government. And it would leave them without a modern diesel to use in production going forward, unless they can sell a detuned current model that gets much lower MPGs than other brands.

 

[IslandTractor]

Now 2.1 million Audi vehicles are known to be affected.
VW has already said they tried 2 times to fix the tune to balance the power and MPGs, with the EPA requirements, and can't do it without sacrificing engine longevity. The hole keeps getting deeper for them. Even if they pay off all current owners, or buy those cars back, where do they go from here? That would leave them in a huge credit hole, if they were kept alive at all by the German government. And it would leave them without a modern diesel to use in production going forward, unless they can sell a detuned current model that gets much lower MPGs than other brands.

Keep in mind that not all VW engines and certainly not all their diesel engines are imported into the US. Time will tell if their other engines suffer from the same EPA type issues. Chevy, or whomever they source their Cruze diesel from, has managed to produce a competitive small diesel for the US market. I would imagine that VW can too even if it won't be quite as powerful or efficient as the one they cheated on.

I was not previously aware that the popularity of diesel in Europe had to do with aggressive tax policies that lowered the price of diesel fuel compared with gas. It makes sense that diesel would require such an incentive to take off in Europe where driving distances are typically much shorter than in the US. The focus on carbon dioxide and ignoring of nitrous oxide and particulates due to elevating global warming concerns above those of public health will now be reevaluated. Paris is already talking about banning diesels. Realigning concerns about climate and public health may well reverse the trend towards diesel in Europe and stymie diesel growth in the US.

My take on this remains that small diesels are going to be replaced with newer gas and gas/hybrid passenger vehicles for the vast majority of personal transport vehicles. I can see diesels having a niche role for long distance travel but when gas/hybrids are pushing 50mpg even the fuel economy argument starts to work against diesel. There is no diesel passenger vehicle that can match a gas/hybrid in urban and suburban driving. VW itself has very limited experience with hybrids but they do have an excellent modern and very fuel efficient engine in their 1.8L TSI. Frankly their own new gas engine has been a pretty strong argument against their own diesel for 90+% of VW customers.

 

[IslandTractor]

Energi (plug in) version costs a little more and loses some cargo space compared to just Hybrid, no? Now that you are driving it, do you think the Energi option is cost effective, or is it better in some other way?

I ask because I have a 100 mile drive each way to the ranch that I do weekly, and I need something with fantastic highway mileage and also with some cargo space. Subaru Outback was fine but only 23 mpg for this trip, then Ford Focus Wagon at 30 mpg. Is the C-Max hybrid a reasonable next car for this application? Thanks for any comments.

And back on-topic - I considered a TDI wagon but the maintenance costs looked high. In 10 years the Focus has had a few oil changes, the scheduled maintenance, 55k miles on tires etc. I'm under $400 for repairs in ten years/100k miles. I want similar low maintenance cost in my next car and the VW TDI maintenance schedule looked scary expensive. Now of course TDI is out of the question until we see who bears the cost to bring these into compliance. I wonder if they can even be registered in California now. (Smog check required, to issue plates to the new owner). VW has a heck of a mess on their hands.

I bought my C-Max Energi used about four months and 5000 miles ago. I had looked at the VW TDIs and various Prius models before buying it. The Fords are now coming off lease and as the price of gas is currently low they are being resold at bargain prices. (Same trim level Energi sell for the same as the hybrid used these days) That said, I did find the CMax as fun to drive as the VWs and much more fun than a Prius. I live in a suburb and a good proportion of my driving is into and back from Boston which I can do purely on the 20 mile electric range. On long trips I've averaged about 42mpg (just got back from a 400 mile trip to Vermont this weekend driving 70-75 in hilly country with 41mpg). I also drive most weekends to a summer place 85 miles away. Most of that is obviously in hybrid mode. Still, my combined average MPG over the past month has been 65mpg which includes 20 miles electric each day.

The CMax (even the hybrid) has less cargo capacity than a VW Sportwagen or Prius V. I do fold down one of the rear seats frequently when I do a Costco trip. However, the CMax cargo capacity has been easy to live with and it is WAY more fun to drive than a Prius. Neither more or less responsive than a Golf or Jetta wagen. However, the Energi really is optimized for urban/suburban driving where you can make use of the 20 mile electric range before it switches to hybrid. Otherwise the C-Max hybrid makes more sense as it has a bigger cargo capacity and weighs about 200lbs less (smaller battery). I have a minivan as a third vehicle in our family so I wasn't concerned about cargo space. If I need to transport a lawn mower or something like that I just take the minivan instead of the CMax.

 

[ultrarunner]

Even 15 years ago when I was working in Europe and bought a BMW 325it with a gas engine... my colleagues scolded me for not buying a diesel...

Gas engines were mostly regulated to the smallest displacement or high end luxury/performance... almost the entire segment in between is Diesel... also Toyota, Honda, Mitsubishi, Chrysler Mini Vans/Jeeps all have/had Diesel options and Diesel is/was significantly less expensive per liter for fuel... even Porsche has Diesel options.

Engine life has really never been much of an issue in the area where I was living... rust is what retired vehicles and for the most part... rust repairs were required to be all metal... no fillers.

It is interesting that countries like Mexico have/had basically eliminated Diesel for passenger cars... so, unless something changed... even if VW were to do Lemon Law buyback of all 500,000 cars... it would seen they would also have to leave North America.

 

[hutchman]

The two people I know with the affected Diesels were saying they get better than EPA mileage... so in test mode I would think it would be closer or less than EPA mileage.

Read two more newspaper stories today and both said the care pollute 40 times over the limit... neither said as much as 40 or up to 40... media bias?

I've never seen a TDI get worse MPG than the sticker. Even the older ones.

I have a hard time believing the new ones are so bad. I mean if I stomp on the pedal of the two I have .... I can leave a James Bond smoke screen (it's from the oil that gets past the turbo seal and pools in the intercooler). It isn't 'rolling coal' but you can see it. I've never seen any kind of visible exhaust come out of the 'clean diesel' models so they have to be much better than the 2006 and previous models.

 

[hutchman]

Now 2.1 million Audi vehicles are known to be affected.
VW has already said they tried 2 times to fix the tune to balance the power and MPGs, with the EPA requirements, and can't do it without sacrificing engine longevity. The hole keeps getting deeper for them. Even if they pay off all current owners, or buy those cars back, where do they go from here? That would leave them in a huge credit hole, if they were kept alive at all by the German government. And it would leave them without a modern diesel to use in production going forward, unless they can sell a detuned current model that gets much lower MPGs than other brands.

Even with the 2006 model the cam will wear the lobe and end up putting a hole in the lifter (flat tappet). It's a known problem. I had been monitoring it on my wife's car and around the start of the year went ahead and pulled the cam and replaced it (210,000 miles ... I made it way farther than most) with an improved version. So I wonder if the 'fix' reduces longevity worse than that! I don't know if the newer models have such problems ... the newer engines are complicated beasts. The older ones were pretty simple.

 

[hutchman]

Keep in mind that not all VW engines and certainly not all their diesel engines are imported into the US. Time will tell if their other engines suffer from the same EPA type issues. Chevy, or whomever they source their Cruze diesel from, has managed to produce a competitive small diesel for the US market. I would imagine that VW can too even if it won't be quite as powerful or efficient as the one they cheated on.

I was not previously aware that the popularity of diesel in Europe had to do with aggressive tax policies that lowered the price of diesel fuel compared with gas. It makes sense that diesel would require such an incentive to take off in Europe where driving distances are typically much shorter than in the US. The focus on carbon dioxide and ignoring of nitrous oxide and particulates due to elevating global warming concerns above those of public health will now be reevaluated. Paris is already talking about banning diesels. Realigning concerns about climate and public health may well reverse the trend towards diesel in Europe and stymie diesel growth in the US.

My take on this remains that small diesels are going to be replaced with newer gas and gas/hybrid passenger vehicles for the vast majority of personal transport vehicles. I can see diesels having a niche role for long distance travel but when gas/hybrids are pushing 50mpg even the fuel economy argument starts to work against diesel. There is no diesel passenger vehicle that can match a gas/hybrid in urban and suburban driving. VW itself has very limited experience with hybrids but they do have an excellent modern and very fuel efficient engine in their 1.8L TSI. Frankly their own new gas engine has been a pretty strong argument against their own diesel for 90+% of VW customers.

You guys are forgetting that the gas engine is going through (or will be) the same growing pains diesel has since 2007. Gas engines are going GDI to meet MPG standards and their PM is worse than diesel in some conditions and will most likely need the same gizmoes that's on current diesel. Nobody will get out of this situation alive ... EPA beat the diesel devil to death and now it's gasoline engines they will go after. We all lose in the end. No engine will be reliable or last very long but that's OK, just throw it away and get a new one every few years like with your cell phone

 

[IslandTractor]

You guys are forgetting that the gas engine is going through (or will be) the same growing pains diesel has since 2007. Gas engines are going GDI to meet MPG standards and their PM is worse than diesel in some conditions and will most likely need the same gizmoes that's on current diesel. Nobody will get out of this situation alive ... EPA beat the diesel devil to death and now it's gasoline engines they will go after. We all lose in the end. No engine will be reliable or last very long but that's OK, just throw it away and get a new one every few years like with your cell phone

Yes, PM are more of an issue with direct injection than port injection gas motors. However, this problem has just surfaced and there are likely tweaks to the design of cylinder heads, pistons etc that can be used in addition to PM filters. More precise fuel dispersion through use of better injectors will also likely help. Bottom line is that particulates in diesel engines are a very well studied problem that diesel engineers have been unable so solve after many decades of work without add on filters etc while PM in direct injection engines have just been identified as an issue and there are still multiple possible solutions other than simply filtration.

 

[hutchman]

Yes, PM are more of an issue with direct injection than port injection gas motors. However, this problem has just surfaced and there are likely tweaks to the design of cylinder heads, pistons etc that can be used in addition to PM filters. More precise fuel dispersion through use of better injectors will also likely help. Bottom line is that particulates in diesel engines are a very well studied problem that diesel engineers have been unable so solve after many decades of work without add on filters etc while PM in direct injection engines have just been identified as an issue and there are still multiple possible solutions other than simply filtration.

True, true. I guess the point I was making was kind of a bird in the hand vs bird in the bush kind of thing. The future GDI issues don't have a history of solutions so it could be a bumpy ride over the next several years. I know BMW already has PM filters on one of it's GDI's.

 

[sd455dan]

The focus on carbon dioxide and ignoring of nitrous oxide and particulates due to elevating global warming concerns above those of public health will now be reevaluated.



If it were Nitrous oxide being spewed by VWs most people would be laughing about it- (Laughing Gas) the other gas is not so funny

This deal with VW is a lot about the NOx so...

wondering if HHO has been looked at seriously for emissions reduction? it would be somewhat of a pain to deal with- more so than DEF

I experimented with some HHO generation that i copied and built- and although the so called mileage improvements were not large if at all or consistent, the exhaust smell virtually disappeared.
wondering if any of the diesel engine builders have looked into this??
This Ron motors link has some interesting emissions data from 08 concerning a 2008 Cummins equipped Peterbuilt with a H2GO system and they claimed a

32% CO2 reduction

AND a

41% reduction in NOx

Ronn Motors: Scorpion HHO super sportscar | Fuel-Efficient-Vehicles.org

the H2GO system is claiming a 90% reduction in emissions Ronn H2GO Hydrogen on Demand for All Cars and Trucks | Hydrogen Cars Now


Anyone have opinions? - my guess is even if it works the hassle and cost of dealing with HHO and the chemicals used, will kill it for large scale use,
Then again some people have gotten used to DEF