VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

[MikePA]

Is anyone else shocked that dozens or hundreds of VW engineers kept this deception secret for at least seven years? Is this another example of Germans just doing as they are told regardless of ethics?

I have not seen any reports that indicated how many people were aware of this.

 

[jmc]

I knew an engineering student who interned with GM. He worked in a department that bought competitive cars, like Lexus at the time, and completely disassembled them to see how they were made. Probably standard procedure in the industry. It' s not a stretch to think that an engineer at a VW competitor would run his own evaluation on such a seemingly competitive diesel. Maybe the industry wanted to keep it quiet for some reason, despite the unfair advantage.

 

[sseelhoff]

Does the MPAA now go back and re-rate Vin Diesel's old movies as "R?"
Does he change his name to Vin Hybrid?

The implications of this scandal are far reaching indeed.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have not seen any reports that indicated how many people were aware of this.

And I am sure it will be months before detailed information is available. However, consider the process of design of a strategy to clear the EPA hurdle. High up executives would establish performance goals for the engine. Groups of engineers would work to meet those goals knowing full well that the big challenge these days is balancing performance and emissions. Prototypes are designed and built. There would be initial "dry" runs to test emissions and power/efficiency in the factory. They would realize that they cannot meet the EPA standard and maintain target performance. These results would be reported up the chain of command, probably all the way to the CEO if not the Board. What should we do next? There would be a think tank of engineers to consider options. Someone would point out that emission controls can be turned on and off. A supervisor would approve trying it (perhaps while attempting other solutions too). A software team would be involved to write the code that would permit the ECM to turn on and off the emissions controls when only the front wheels were spinning. Probably a simple coding job but still would involve a team of software engineers. A solution is obtained. The responsible group now reports back up the chain of command. The chain of command is basically detail oriented engineers. They want to know how it was done. The CEO Winterkorn is famous for crawling around on the ground checking precise details on both VW and competitor vehicles. No way on earth he does not know the details and if he knows then so do all the managers in between the software programmers and the executive suite.

The only way that I can envision that middle management was not in the know was if Winterkorn bypassed them and had a little "hit" squad of engineers working stealthily directly from his office and even that would be incredibly difficult to keep a secret.

I just don't get it. How can so many talented well trained people know about a strategy that is clearly illegal and nobody has the courage to blow a whistle? Is Sergeant Schultz truly the stereotype that fits?

 

[IslandTractor]

Does the MPAA now go back and re-rate Vin Diesel's old movies as "R?"
Does he change his name to Vin Hybrid?

The implications of this scandal are far reaching indeed.

I agree. This is the beginning of the end of diesel in passenger vehicles. It may have happened soon anyways as the emissions problem with diesel may simply be unsolvable with current technology while the efficiency of gas engines is improving dramatically (look at VW's own 1.8L TSI compared to the previous generation 2.5L) and lithium battery costs are dropping rapidly too. The next gen Prius is reported to get 55mph. Not many diesels can match that and certainly not for the cost. Diesels are great highway motors but the majority of driving is done within 20 miles of home where hybrids and plug in electrics excel. Emissions equipment on diesel vehicles doesn't do well at all with stop and start driving either.

It's hard to argue that the air pollution from the relatively small number of VW diesel passenger vehicles in the US has made any difference to public health but in Europe the situation is different. 50% of passenger vehicles are now diesel there. The Brits estimate that more than 20,000 people die early each year in the UK due to air pollution and that efforts to bring that down have been stymied. Diesel has been pushed hard in Europe because it lowers CO2 emissions compared to gas vehicles but all the focus on CO2 because of global warming allowed NO and particulates to be ignored. As the VW scandal causes a wide reappraisal the role of passenger vehicle emissions in respiratory illness will certainly be part of the debate and hybrids/electrics will win that contest easily over diesel.

The VW debacle may not be the end of diesel but it is almost certainly the beginning of the end of diesel use in mainstream passenger vehicles.

 

[sseelhoff]

I agree. This is the beginning of the end of diesel in passenger vehicles. It may have happened soon anyways as the emissions problem with diesel may simply be unsolvable with current technology while the efficiency of gas engines is improving dramatically (look at VW's own 1.8L TSI compared to the previous generation 2.5L) and lithium battery costs are dropping rapidly too. The next gen Prius is reported to get 55mph. Not many diesels can match that and certainly not for the cost. Diesels are great highway motors but the majority of driving is done within 20 miles of home where hybrids and plug in electrics excel. Emissions equipment on diesel vehicles doesn't do well at all with stop and start driving either.

It's hard to argue that the air pollution from the relatively small number of VW diesel passenger vehicles in the US has made any difference to public health but in Europe the situation is different. 50% of passenger vehicles are now diesel there. The Brits estimate that more than 20,000 people die early each year in the UK due to air pollution and that efforts to bring that down have been stymied. Diesel has been pushed hard in Europe because it lowers CO2 emissions compared to gas vehicles but all the focus on CO2 because of global warming allowed NO and particulates to be ignored. As the VW scandal causes a wide reappraisal the role of passenger vehicle emissions in respiratory illness will certainly be part of the debate and hybrids/electrics will win that contest easily over diesel.

The VW debacle may not be the end of diesel but it is almost certainly the beginning of the end of diesel use in mainstream passenger vehicles.

Learning a lot of things about diesel reading the various articles, which are now abundant. 50% of vehicles sold in Europe are diesel based, and have been for some time. European emission controls are not as stringent as U.S. France was already threatening to ban diesels due to smog considerations in Paris. Only 1% of VWs sold in US (about 500,000 cars) from 2009 to present are diesel. Worldwide, the number is 11 million. So the U.S. problem is miniscule compared to the global sales.

There is also a good article on Vox about how this will affect diesel sales in U.S., and what it means for hybrids and all electric cars.

I agree with what others have said about chain of command. This is not a lone wolf engineer that did this. Too much involved for one person to have pulled this off. It implies an intracompany conspiracy. The only question is how far up does it go. Winterkorn's term as CEO was about to end. He was expected to be renewed until 2018 or 2019 this week. Don't know that this is going to happen. Meanwhile, VW stockholders (meaning pension plans, retirees, investors) are going to take a severe beating for the malfeasance of VW insiders.

 

[smstonypoint]

I agree with what others have said about chain of command. This is not a lone wolf engineer that did this. Too much involved for one person to have pulled this off. It implies an intracompany conspiracy. The only question is how far up does it go. Winterkorn's term as CEO was about to end.

Winterkorn appears to be a "hands on" manager.

Winterkorn has long been accused by critics of an excessively centralized and hands-on management style, which they say has led to production delays and hindered the company's ability to adapt to local market needs.

In 2012, the launch of the Lamborghini brand's Aventador was delayed by about six months after the CEO requested a different dashboard following a test drive, one company source said.

Volkswagen chief faces grilling by board over diesel scandal | Reuters

Steve

 

[2LaneCruzer]

I knew an engineering student who interned with GM. He worked in a department that bought competitive cars, like Lexus at the time, and completely disassembled them to see how they were made. Probably standard procedure in the industry. It' s not a stretch to think that an engineer at a VW competitor would run his own evaluation on such a seemingly competitive diesel. Maybe the industry wanted to keep it quiet for some reason, despite the unfair advantage.

I spent a considerable amount of my professional life in Environmental enforcement, Air Quality in particular. While it was industrial and not automotive emissions, I can tell you this much; the industry I was used to dealing with would struggle to meet the emissions requirements, but they expected the agency to make their competitors do the same. My guess is that if other manufacturers kept their mouths shut, they also had something to hide. I would also venture that VW's competetion had something to do with the unveiling.

As for the management knowing what was going on, I can see a CEO mandating: "Make this engine meet the emissions requirements by the end of the year. I don't care how you do it, just do it". Having worked in R&D also, I suspect the details were on a need-to-know basis only. Technical folks may be a bit ****, and their information limited, but you can bet your boots they had a pretty good idea what was going on. You give as few folks as possible the opportunity to say "That's illegal, I'm not doing it". I have seen things filter down that I knew were not on the up-and-up, but couldn't prove it. Will watch with interest as this thing unfolds.

 

[alchemysa]

Over here its illegal to remove or disable anti-pollution equipment. Such an action automatically makes the vehicle 'unroadworthy'. So, basically, VW has been selling cars that automatically make themselves unroadworthy the moment they start to move. You couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[sseelhoff]

Over here its illegal to remove or disable anti-pollution equipment. Such an action automatically makes the vehicle 'unroadworthy'. So, basically, VW has been selling cars that automatically make themselves unroadworthy the moment they start to move. You couldn't make this stuff up.

It's illegal here, too. That's part of VW's problem. The possibility of jail time is real. DOJ is targeting white collar criminals (except financial industry). This will ramp up their efforts.