VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

JCByrd24 · Sep 22, 2015

Not an overly thought out post here and I haven't read any of the articles about this debacle, but a couple of things as the buyer of a 2012 VW TDI:

1) The 2.0 in the Jetta makes 45 MPG is all conditions with zero visible emissions, it's a blast to drive; it's not a bad system and I must believe is cleaner than the generation before that had great efficiency and reliability as well. Compared to a gas engine (2.5L back in 2012 not the new 1.8T) in the same car that gets 30 MPG I struggle to understand how the EPA hasn't stacked the deck against diesels in the US. I'm not condoning cheating but I've never gotten this (we couldn't even buy the previous generation of VW diesels here in Maine, but you can always go buy a V10 or diesel HD truck).

2) Again, without reading any articles, why would plugging in the vehicle be part of any EPA approval testing (such that on detection it ran differently to defeat the test). Plugging in is a part of the self-reporting of an older vehicle during "dumb" emissions testing that doesn't actually involve emissions testing, but why wouldn't new production vehicles just be actually tested on a track/dyno...seems like the EPA has a role here to me....similar to the fact that real world MPG doesn't match EPA on almost all vehicles...oh except diesels that routinely beat the EPA ratings.

IslandTractor · Sep 22, 2015

MikePA said:
Sadly, far too many people think a 'corporation' pays the fine. They have no idea a corporation is nothing more than a legal entity. The stockholders, employees, customers, suppliers, taxpayers (reduced profit = less income taxes paid) etc., pay the fine, one way or another.

But the fact a 'corporation' is paying the fine keeps the peasants, their torches and pitchforks storming someone else's castle. Schadenfreude at its best.

Agree. The stockholders in this case are pretty much completely innocent yet will take a huge hit. The executive suite at VW is going to be purged without question, perhaps tomorrow but I'd be very interested to see which country actually takes them to court on criminal charges. The CEO at the very least needs to do some serious time as a 24/7/365 guest of the US government in my book but I imagine Germany may get a first crack at him. There clearly were dozens if not hundreds of people at VW who knew about this but kept it secret for many years. Shocking. You'd think that at least one pissed off employee would have done the whistleblower thing over the past seven or eight years.

In any case, I think this is the end of diesel for passenger vehicles in the US. This is much worse than the GM diesel fiasco in the early 1970s and that put diesel back thirty years here. Only Germany really produces many diesel passenger vehicle engines and most of those are VW. It will be expensive to redesign and develop technology for a diesel with acceptable performance that actually meets EPA standards (Mazda has been trying honestly for years without success) and now that the world's largest automobile diesel manufacturer, VW, is in deep financial trouble they will not be able to support much R and D. Even if they come up with a new diesel engine or fix, the fact is that in the past decade gas engines have been improving much faster than diesels and are now reasonably close in MPG. Check out VW's own 1.8liter TSI or the Mazda and Ford offerings. Also, lithium battery costs are coming way down so hybrid technology will be cheaper. Hybrids already get a real 40mpg and the next generation will get 50 so that is as good as any diesel. Of course trucks and tractors etc will still use diesel but the potential for passenger vehicle use has been dealt a blow I don't think it will ever recover from.

MossRoad · Sep 22, 2015

JCByrd24 said:
Not an overly thought out post here and I haven't read any of the articles about this debacle, but a couple of things as the buyer of a 2012 VW TDI:

1) The 2.0 in the Jetta makes 45 MPG is all conditions with zero visible emissions, it's a blast to drive; it's not a bad system and I must believe is cleaner than the generation before that had great efficiency and reliability as well. Compared to a gas engine (2.5L back in 2012 not the new 1.8T) in the same car that gets 30 MPG I struggle to understand how the EPA hasn't stacked the deck against diesels in the US. I'm not condoning cheating but I've never gotten this (we couldn't even buy the previous generation of VW diesels here in Maine, but you can always go buy a V10 or diesel HD truck).

2) Again, without reading any articles, why would plugging in the vehicle be part of any EPA approval testing (such that on detection it ran differently to defeat the test). Plugging in is a part of the self-reporting of an older vehicle during "dumb" emissions testing that doesn't actually involve emissions testing, but why wouldn't new production vehicles just be actually tested on a track/dyno...seems like the EPA has a role here to me....similar to the fact that real world MPG doesn't match EPA on almost all vehicles...oh except diesels that routinely beat the EPA ratings.

They were tested on a dyno. The software detected when only the front wheels were turning (as is when on a dyno) and then turned on the emissions stuff. If the rear wheels started to turn (I.E. being dragged by the front) they knew it wasn't on a dyno being tested and the emissions stuff was turned off.

alchemysa · Sep 23, 2015

What truly amazes me is the utter stupidity of VW. It was inevitable that the truth would eventually come out. And they should have known that they would not get out of it with a slap on the wrist. This will cost them tens of billions of dollars in fines, lost sales, consumer lawsuits etc. This, on top of the gearbox debacle, has completely trashed VW's reputation and credibility. Whoever approved this must be just about the dumbest executive in automobile history.

MikePA · Sep 23, 2015

Martin Winterkorn has been VW's CEO since January 1, 2007.
The model years of involved start in 2009.

I can see Winterkorn being involved. I can also see him making it VW's top priority to develop a diesel engine that both meets emissions standards and has good performance. An ambitious engineer does so and no one asks, 'How'd you do that?".

alchemysa · Sep 23, 2015

MikePA said:
An ambitious engineer does so and no one asks, 'How'd you do that?".

I can't believe no-one asked "How'd you do that?" A lot of people had to be involved in this. Even the engineers not involved must have been puzzled how such results were achieved.

Exactly "how many people knew" will make a great case study for conspiracy researchers. One of the main arguments against the wilder conspiracy theories is that "you just can't keep that many people quiet". It will be fascinating to put some numbers to that question.

MikePA · Sep 23, 2015

I can easily see no one asking, "How?"

I can see them asking;

1. Does the engine pass the EPA tests? Yes, it does.
2. How's the performance? Here are the figures.
3. How's the mileage?

People were looking for results and they got them. I am not implying they were willfully ignorant. Asking 'How?" could easily not enter into management's frame of reference.

murphy1244 · Sep 23, 2015

When did they start testing Diesel engines for AIMS test?

IslandTractor · Sep 23, 2015

Is anyone else shocked that dozens or hundreds of VW engineers kept this deception secret for at least seven years? Is this another example of Germans just doing as they are told regardless of ethics?

sseelhoff · Sep 23, 2015

alchemysa said:
I can't believe no-one asked "How'd you do that?" A lot of people had to be involved in this. Even the engineers not involved must have been puzzled how such results were achieved.

Exactly "how many people knew" will make a great case study for conspiracy researchers. One of the main arguments against the wilder conspiracy theories is that "you just can't keep that many people quiet". It will be fascinating to put some numbers to that question.

MikePA said:
I can easily see no one asking, "How?"

I can see them asking;

1. Does the engine pass the EPA tests? Yes, it does.
2. How's the performance? Here are the figures.
3. How's the mileage?

People were looking for results and they got them. I am not implying they were willfully ignorant. Asking 'How?" could easily not enter into management's frame of reference.