Water in hydraulic system.

[JSharp]

I know this is a common problem so I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas -

When I got my 404 it had usual hydraulic problems that seem to go along with older equipment. Milky looking fluid in the hydraulic system, obviously from water contamination. And the lift worked slowly, the pump was noisy, etc.

I changed the fluid and filter and the problems went away for maybe an hour. But of course they came back. Not as bad as before but still not right. So I changed the filter again and topped off the fluid. Again, I can run an hour or so and the problems re-appear.

I know I can just keep changing fluid and filters until I get everything flushed out. But wasting 7 gallons, $45 worth of UTF and a $10 filter each time is going to get expensive. It's also a pita trying to dispose of 7 gallons of fluid.

Does anyone have any cheaper or easier ways to resolve this? Or am I just stuck doing it this way?

 

[mlauk]

You probably didn't get it all out the first time it was drained. It doesn't take much water to make it milky. On older tractors there are 2 drain plugs sometimes. Let it drain a long time and cycle the hydraulic lever to make sure it is out of the cylinder. Also, if it sets outside, water leaks in around the shifter boots on some models.

 

[JSharp]

Those things I did.

Mine has 2 drain plugs. One on the bottom of the rear end housing and one on the lift housing. I pulled them both and let them drain for 1/2 a day. I also made sure the lift was all the way down to clear out all of it I could from the lift cylinder.

The lift housing fluid actually looked worse than what came out of the lower housing. I imagine the previous owners had never drained it.

I know I won't be leavng it out in the rain. The shifter isn't sealed, just a metal splash and dust cover. It appears to be the only system vent...

 

[Red55]

Just an idea- would it be cheaper to fill it with diesel or kerosene let is sit over night then drain it? Know thats what they do with the chinese tractors to get the crappie chinese oil out. I bring my used oil to the county recylcing drop off. Good luck Ed

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Throw a bottle of isopropyl in your hyd oil.

 

[Dirthog]

You also need to check the flow and pressure on the pump after changing the oil and filter twice you should have 95% or more of the water out of the system if it runs about a hour and acts up that would be just about long long enough for the system to warm up and the pump to loose flow if worn

 

[JSharp]

Dirthog - I've changed the oil just once but the filter twice. When I said I can run about an hour before I have problems, I meant that's about how long it takes before the suction screen and filter are loaded up with white foamy crap again and I can hear the pump starting to cavitate. It actually seems to work better for a while as the fluid starts to warm. Right up until I get the plugged filter.

But, with my use and the colder weather here I haven't be able to work the tractor hard enough to get things up to "normal" temperature. I even had to cover the grill almost completely just to the get the engine temp up near normal. And that's with a brand new 180 degree thermostat. These things really need a clutch fan.

The tractor had no remote valves when I got it. I've got them installed now but I still need to get the remote plumbing installed and then I'll have an easy way to check the pressure. The lift capacity seems just fine but I know there's no way to be sure without measuring the pressure.

Thanks everyone else for the suggestions. I've wondered about flushing with diesel fuel or adding something else to the existing fluid before I drain it again but then I worry about seal compatibility. I'll need to think about that a little more I guess.

The good news is it doesn't seem to be getting worse. I used the tractor about 1/2 hour last night and the lift was sluggish when I first started but better at the end. I'm hoping the filter is trapping some of the residue. I might try changing the filter yet again and topping off the fluid. I might also try to drain some fluid off the bottom of each reservoir after the tractor sits a week or so. Maybe I can pull some of the water and heavily contaminated fluid out that way with minimal fluid loss.

Old tractors. Gotta love'um...

 

[lar3ry]

Throw a bottle of isopropyl in your hyd oil.

Andy,
I was wondering... have you ever tried doing this to get rid of water in a hydraulic system?

I have a Ford 545 Industrial with a loader on it, and I have water in one part of the loader control. When it freezes (and it really freezes here in Saskatchewan), the control lever will not move left/right, which is bucket tilt. Sometimes the freeze-up will cause the lever to move to the right (tilt down), and I have to thaw it before I can start the machine.

The oil is not foaming, so it's possible that the water is not actually in the oil, but rather, in a position where it moves/holds the actuator rod only.

I currently use a heat gun, directed at the control block, at a place where it looks like the water might be (a sleeve that the rod probably extends into). Within a few minutes, it frees up, and stays free while I use the tractor.

I am a little reluctant to remove the sleeve and check, since I really need the tractor over the winter for snow removal and feeding horses with large round bales, and I'd hate to mess something up until spring.

Thanks,
Larry

 

[mmurphy]

I would say you got it cleaned enough, probably a suction leak.
Or restriction.

 

[J_J]

lar3ry

This is a quote from another individual about isopropyl.

I have used regular ATF for many years with no problems. I recent years I started using synthetic ATF for better cold weather performance. This has been in Fisher and Western pumps. (It even said in manuals that is was acceptable) Meyer pumps do tend to like a lighter fluid so I do not use ATF in those but there are those that do. If you are concerned about anti freeze in it you could add 1/2 to 1 oz of methol alcohol to it (depending on system fluid capacity). Alcohol is the only anitfreeze that can be added to oil because only it can bond to both the water and oil at same time at the molecular level. Do not use Isopropyl as it is 30 to 50% water by volume as bought over the counter. At a 50% water level Isopropyl freezes at about -25. Add in any water it may find in system at the freezing point gets a lot higher yet. Methyl alcohol (Dry Gas and Gasoline antifreeze) has a freezing point of minus 144 in its pure state and when it takes on the same amount of added moisture that diluted Isopropyl does, it will have a considerably lower freezing point too.

 

[lar3ry]

Thanks for the response, JJ! My hydraulic fluid capacity is 9.1 gallons. I'll try the methyl Alcohol.

The more I think about it, though, the more I think that the water may not be in the fluid at all, but in the protective cover over the ends of the actuating rods. Either way, I think my problem will soon be solved.

Larry

 

[Jbrink64]

Andy,
I was wondering... have you ever tried doing this to get rid of water in a hydraulic system?

I have a Ford 545 Industrial with a loader on it, and I have water in one part of the loader control. When it freezes (and it really freezes here in Saskatchewan), the control lever will not move left/right, which is bucket tilt. Sometimes the freeze-up will cause the lever to move to the right (tilt down), and I have to thaw it before I can start the machine.

The oil is not foaming, so it's possible that the water is not actually in the oil, but rather, in a position where it moves/holds the actuator rod only.

I currently use a heat gun, directed at the control block, at a place where it looks like the water might be (a sleeve that the rod probably extends into). Within a few minutes, it frees up, and stays free while I use the tractor.

I am a little reluctant to remove the sleeve and check, since I really need the tractor over the winter for snow removal and feeding horses with large round bales, and I'd hate to mess something up until spring.

Thanks,
Larry

Not to hijack a thread, but your problem with the 545 is water freezing in the spring cap on the control valve. Probably not water in the oil. The cap needs to be removed, cleaned out, lubed with a little spray grease, then use some rtv on the cap to keep water out in the future.

 

[kennyd]

Not to hijack a thread, but your problem with the 545 is water freezing in the spring cap on the control valve. Probably not water in the oil. The cap needs to be removed, cleaned out, lubed with a little spray grease, then use some rtv on the cap to keep water out in the future.

I agree 100%. Except for the RTV part, "sealing" it will only keep condensation inside, and it will condensate when the valve warms up and the cap is still cold. Best to drill a small hole in the bottom, and fill with a heavy grease that won't run out. This is a very common problem with Kubota's also.

 

[Jbrink64]

I agree 100%. Except for the RTV part, "sealing" it will only keep condensation inside, and it will condensate when the valve warms up and the cap is still cold. Best to drill a small hole in the bottom, and fill with a heavy grease that won't run out. This is a very common problem with Kubota's also.

On the 545, water runs off the hood, then onto the control valve which is mounted at a 45 degree angle. The spring cap also has an electro-magnet assembly for the RTD. It's a real water catcher. You can drill a hole, but I would suggest keeping the water out.

 

[kennyd]

On the 545, water runs off the hood, then onto the control valve which is mounted at a 45 degree angle. The spring cap also has an electro-magnet assembly for the RTD. It's a real water catcher. You can drill a hole, but I would suggest keeping the water out.

Understood, but how will it the help with condensation?

 

[Jbrink64]

Understood, but how will it the help with condensation?

It's water ingress. It actually flows in-between the cap and valve body. Melting snow/rain drips right on the valve when everything is warm...then it freezes.

 

[kennyd]

It's water ingress. It actually flows in-between the cap and valve body. Melting snow/rain drips right on the valve when everything is warm...then it freezes.

Ok then...

 

[lar3ry]

Not to hijack a thread, but your problem with the 545 is water freezing in the spring cap on the control valve. Probably not water in the oil. The cap needs to be removed, cleaned out, lubed with a little spray grease, then use some rtv on the cap to keep water out in the future.

Not a hijack at all JB! I put the question out there for anyone who might be able to answer it.

Thanks for the reply. As you may have seen after you responded, further down in the thread, I speculated that the water might not be in the oil at all, but in the cover (I had different terminology), so yes, I think you are entirely right.

I also see that KennyD responded with a concern about condensation (thanks Kenny!), and I may just do a combination of the two... seal with RTV and drill a small hole and plug with grease.

I'll get back and let you know what I did, probably after Christmas.

Thanks for the help, guys!

Larry

 

[Rocwin]

Just to add another option that I didn't see in the thread. Depending on your existing filter in the system you can often buy filters with water absorbing media inside them, they aren't economical if you have an big water problem but they are a good preventative measure if water seems to get in every once and a while.

 

[lar3ry]

Just to add another option that I didn't see in the thread. Depending on your existing filter in the system you can often buy filters with water absorbing media inside them, they aren't economical if you have an big water problem but they are a good preventative measure if water seems to get in every once and a while.

Thanks RocWin. I'll keep that in mind. Not sure where the filter is, but I'll find it.