Welding and Parkinsons

DAP · Jul 19, 2004

I have a family member that is in the throws of this brutal disease.

Recently, I've heard the ambulance chasers on the telemedia looking for sufferers who've been exposed to welding and iron smithing, etc. Obviously, they're making a correlation.

Who knows a long time welder, smithy suffering from Parkinsons?

Can anyone else make this Johns Manville/Asbestos type connection regarding Parkinsons and welding?

boustany · Jul 19, 2004

Ah geez.

There are millions of people who weld or have worked iron. There are thousands and thousands of people with Parkinsons. Did some people who have Parkinsons weld? Almost guaranteed.

In fact, some were probably Parkinsons sufferers who are or were beekeepers, hardware clerks firemen, carpenters, stock analysts, .....

Could there be a correlation? Perhaps. Could a lawyer find 12 dopes who can be confused between the difference between correlation and causation? Absolutely. Its all about the 30% contingency fees.

Leave it to lawyers to find the cause of Parkinsons before scientists do. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

gotrocks · Jul 19, 2004

Reminded me of a local tragedy. Man got killed on the job, widow hired an attorney. Attorney for the insurance company called widow's attorney and said:"How does $300,000.00 sound?" Widow's attorney said:"That sounds acceptable.... What are you going to give the widow?" /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

boustany · Jul 19, 2004

Thats the name of the game. You hear about a hugh class action settlement: $250 million for the victims. Uh, thats $100 million plus expenses for the victims lawyers in cash. The remaining $150 million is for the 50 million victims who, if they fill out all the paperwork get 3 coupons for hamburgers.

In the stock market class action game the whole thing is a shakedown & gets settled on the basis of what the lawyers think is adequate compensation (for themselves).

Love the widow crack, I'll be using in in future.

rmorgan · Jul 19, 2004

I have a close friend with Parkinson's, and have watched with interest as the welding-rod claims have gathered force. Mangnese-containing welding rods exude fumes which cause central nervous system damage which manifests as either Manganism or Parkinson's (which may or may not be the same thing--there is a debate). A study published in the medical journal Neurology found that welders with such symptoms develop them an average of 15 years earlier than members of the general population. MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) for welding rods have recently identified Parkinson's as a potential hazard, and the connection between magnesium fumes and Parkinson's has been known for about 175 years. There are many facts suggesting that the same type of efforts to disguise these hazards from working men, much like the asbestos industry undeniably did. Whether the coming tide of liability is good or bad, the facts are what they are: Welding rods cause neurological problems in career welders. There will have to be a social judgment whether their injuries should be compensated, but I don't think the science is much in debate and respectfully suggest that not everyone who chooses to help victims of this horrible illness seek compensation for the loss of their ability to function is an "ambulance chaser."

frank_f15 · Jul 19, 2004

i can't ans your question! i am sure there are lots of welders with parkinsons, also there are many with parkinsons that never welded. can welding help to cause the disease? mabey! can you get the disease without welding ? for sure!

BB_TX · Jul 20, 2004

It's unfortunate that even in cases where the victims definitely deserve to be compensated, those victims receive some token payment while the class action lawyers receive 10's if not 100's of millions of dollars. Definitely a flawed litigation system. And for you lawyers, I know the argument that you put a lot a risk by taking these cases. But IMHO the end result is not justified. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

tracdoc · Jul 20, 2004

Evidence has been accumulating to support a relationship between Parkinson's Disease (PD) and welding. To my knowledge, this has only been encountered in career welders. In a small study conducted at Washington Univ, St. Louis, investigators found in their sample of patients (numbering only 15 patients) that these welders had each been exposed to an average of 47,000+ hours of welding. "Welder's" PD appears to differ from "regular" PD only in the age of onset of symptoms. In career welders, the study found onset of symptoms at average age of 46 yrs. In all other cases of PD, symptom onset is later, averaging 60-65 yrs of age. Treatments for both forms of PD are the same.

The study concluded with a suggestion that career welding may be a risk factor for PD. These preliminary data however, cannot exclude a genetic contribution to susceptibility in these exposed individuals.

rmorgan · Jul 20, 2004

BB_TX, I appreciate your thoughtful post and think you're absolutely right about many of the class action lawyers and lawsuits. I've gotten a couple of BS class-action coupons on the mail, never used one and don't know anyone who did, and it's a flaw in the system which needs repair (and has to a significant extent already been fixed by judges).

On the other hand, I represented a class of land-owners a few years ago in a claim against a mineral-rights leasing company which was scamming the landowners by using phony sales to deflate the price on which their 1/8 share was paid. Their claims varied in value from a few dollars to about (as I recall) $20,000, and we were able to repay them nearly 100% of their loss. The company would have been able to drive the families with large claims into the ground with legal maneuvering, and the folks with little claims would have just sucked it up.

So class actions can really equalize the scales, and like just about everything, are an excellent vehicle in the right cases but can be abused.

As to the career-welder issue which prompted the thread, one point to consider is that the alleged welding-rody injuries are, I believe, being handled on a case by case basis, because the facts vary so much from one person to the next. In such cases, the lawyers get a contingent fee, which is the best way the system can account for the fact that people without money need good lawyers and that plaintiff's cases are risky and may be a bust for the lawyer. This seems to be the least imperfect system we can come up with.

IrTxRx · Jul 20, 2004

tracdoc, et. al

you are exactly right... woe be to he who confuses an ASSOCIATION with a CAUSE AND EFFECT relationship. For 50 years the merits of hormone replacement in post-menopausal females was touted because of vast quantities of retrospective data. However, when the question was studied PROSPECTIVELY, essentially, the opposite of all of our suppositions was proved true. This was data from, collectively, several hundred thousand women.

I would suggest that to draw conclusions from a sample of 15 persons is short-sighted (tracdoc - was all this fuss really from an n=15???). However, I guess juries are hard to educate or don't like scientific explainations /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

zuiko · Jul 20, 2004

Well I suppose since they forced everyone who was ever remotely connected to asbestos into bankrupcy they need to find new targets. I saw they were going to try to go after anyone who every made lead-based paint. Not sure how much success they are having with that, but it doesn't surprise me at all.

Those lawyers would be more productive citizens if they just robbed banks for a living. At least the burden on society wouldn't be as great.

DAP · Jul 20, 2004

Let's cut the garlic breath. Hypocracy = 'Lawyers are all bums till ya need a good one.'

I'm trying to find out if anyone else can speak to this correlation PERSONALLY.

If ya found out your town water was killing you, you (and everyone else) would be in the Yellow Pages faster than you could spit.

zuiko · Jul 20, 2004

( If ya found out your town water was killing you, you (and everyone else) would be in the Yellow Pages faster than you could spit. )

That's what everyone always says. I guess that makes it all right then. I've never hired a lawyer for anything, so I guess that just makes me part of the problem.

I never said all lawyers are bad. There are a many different kinds of law practices. The class action mills IMO are total parasites. The money to support that industry doesn't come from a magic tree, it comes from shareholders who won't have as much to retire on and from workers who might not have a job when their company gets put out of business.

gsganzer · Jul 20, 2004

Lets just hope the relationship between welding fumes and parkinsons is truly proven before the lawyers start winning jackpot awards.

Unlike the silicone breast implant fiasco and many others. The lawyers collected tens of millions for their clients "injured by silicone breast implants". Only to have later studies prove that there was no link. Can the companies that were sued ask for their money back????

Yankee · Jul 20, 2004

This thread reminds me, having just deleted the long-winded response I *almost* sent, just how much I enjoy all the tractor discussions.

daedong · Jul 20, 2004

Unlike the silicone breast implant fiasco and many others. The lawyers collected tens of millions for their clients "injured by silicone breast implants". Only to have later studies prove that there was no link. Can the companies that were sued ask for their money back???? 

I think there would be plenty of women out there that had problems that would love these comments
ask them if it was proved /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

rmorgan · Jul 20, 2004

All valid perspectives. This community was almost ripped apart a few years ago by people getting a little (well, maybe a lot) out of hand on political stuff, although I can't remember anymore what it was about, and Muhammad rightly banned those discussions. I certainly don't want to crank up another monster. The original post was regarding welding safety, and for our purposes the important thing is that casual or occasional welding is definitely not a problem.

OK, so a guy gets a letter from his lawyer:

"Dear Joe:

I saw a guy walking down the sidewalk yesterday, and I thought it was you. I crossed thre street to say hello, but it was actually somebody else.

.1 hours, $25.00." /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

YanmarFever · Jul 23, 2004

Are we talking wire feed welding, or stick welding with rods
or both? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I welded for 30 yrs. total 8 hrs. a day /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

KiotiJohn · Jul 23, 2004

The truth about Parkinson's is that NO ONE knows what causes it. Everything from welding to amalgam dental filling, and cooking in aluminum cookware to herpes viruses have been accused of causing the problem. As in so many maladies we humans suffer, people are just guessing as to the causes. John

rockinmywaypa · Jul 23, 2004

I agree, a lot of lawyers are giving a bad name to the very few good ones. As for the water issue, this one happened not to far away in a place called Walkerton. Town employees were submitting samples that weren't even taken on the water and also admitted to drinking booze on the job and seven people ended up dying from ecoli infected water not to mention the hundreds whose kidneys have shut down, maybe permantly. I don't think its anywhere close to being sorted out.