Welding and Parkinsons

[slowzuki]

I'm interested as I weld on occasion. I would have to think anyone who welds is guilty of inhaling fumes they know they shouldn't of had too.

I'm getting smart enough now to know setting up ventilation every for a couple of second job is worth it and cleaning the paint etc off is important. Used to weld on god knows what kinds of paint on scrap steel.

With proper ventilation, minimal exposure to fumes is needed, many work enviroments haven't adapted to this type of thinking yet.

My neighbour is a autobody specialist who does custom painting. I rarely can spend more than a few minutes in his shop as I get a headache. I had spoke to him earlier about the fumes and he told me he doesn't smell them anymore and he doesn't get headaches any more.

I was in after that and he was installing a downdraft booth, he now has a daughter and realized he should be thinking long-term effects, not the short term cost savings.

Ken

 

[DAP]

Ernie, these details are exactly what we are all trying to discern concerning this thread.

 

[rmorgan]

TractorEarnie and DAP--

The alloying element of concern is mangaese (Mn). Some rod and some wire is alloyed with manganese; some isn't. Good information (to include many MSDS sheets) about individual types of wire and rod is a Google away.

The important thing to remember is that what is at issue is an epidemiological association resulting from the observation that in a certain population, the incidence of early-onset Parkinson's is more prevalent than in the population as a whole.

Put this in context: When I was a kid, I used to carry around a film canister with a big ball of mercury in it, and I would take it out and roll it around in my hands, and then probably eat a peanut-butter-and-banana sandwich. I bet some of you did the same thing (maybe with different sandwiches). The odds are darned high that I will not have any problem because of it, but there is certainly a chance that I would: Mercury exposure can cause a bunch of bad nerological problems. Of course, I could also have neurological problems which have nothing at all to do with mercury exposure. Now, if somebody did a study of a million middle-aged guys who used to roll balls of mercury around in their hands before lunch and found that ten times as many of them were psychotic as a million guys in the non-mercury-rolling population, there would be a basis to say that there is an association. And thus the issue with lead-based paint.

Although the manganese/neurological complication association has been observed for more than a century, KiotiJohn is right that the association is a guess, just as it remains, in some sense, a guess that nicotine causes cancer. But even though we all have a pretty good idea that it does, the fact is that most people who smoke cigarettes don't get lung cancer. And so with the welding-rod issue. The most important thing to understand is that this still concerns a small fraction of the population of professional welders. The overwhelming odds for any individual career welder is that he will not have any problem. The point to me is that if you do develop what you think might be symptoms of neurological problems, get 'em checked out for the sake of yourself and your family. I hope this helps.

 

[KiotiJohn]

rmorgan, very well said. I hate for people to become too concerned over a matter such as this when there are plenty of knowns out there to worry about.
A study today will say X is great for you, and a study 10 years from now will say that was all wrong and you're going to die.
Take the proper precautions with whatever activity you're involved in, and be happy. John

 

[DAP]

Donkeycakes, John. You can't have it both ways - AND - you're purported anger is terribly misdrected.

You express [sic] dismay about others who 'waste' their time fretting over unknowns - then immediately morph into one of those by making the same complaint (where X is ok now but will kill you later).

If we didn't worry about the unknowns, we would have been extinct about several million years ago.

The point is, in this contemporary world, more and more we are left to fend for ourselves as individuals. No one is really looking out for you much.

Perhaps ignorance REALLY IS bliss.

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Donkeycakes, John. You can't have it both ways - AND - you're purported anger is terribly misdrected.)</font>
Well, I wasn't angry and don't think I said I was, but I am now. Ignorance is bliss indeed. You obviously didn't read what I wrote with any of the spirit in which I meant it. I used the studies as an example of how people get stirred up by misinformation that caused them a lot of stress, only to find out later that maybe they didn't need to be worried about it after all. That was no complaint on MY part, I don't worry at all about all the BS being put out by the industry that pays my living. Seems you're the angry one because I stepped on your toes inadvertently by possible poo pooing your thread which was not my intent. Maybe in your case indignation is bliss? The only unknowns that we concentrated on over the years that saved our humanity were things we proved beyond a doubt at some point. In the meantime, why worry? John

 

[DAP]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( rmorgan, very well said. I hate for people to become too concerned over a matter such as this when there are plenty of knowns out there to worry about.
)</font>

Your words friend, not mine. It shoot's the messenger (not always a bad idea). I needn't be reminded to read what you wrote. But if you think the word hate can be associated with anger, then tis YOU who needs reminding to read what YOU wrote. Got it?

Say what you mean, and mean what you say, especially in a electronic forum such as this.

/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[MicroPilot]

HUH???

Are you TRYING to make someone angry?

IMO you have taken what he said in the wrong way, and have then responded (belligerently) and quoted out of context.

 

[John762]

Guys,
My Dad has this disease and worked in the manufacturing of Manganese for the welding and aluminum alloy business. It is also used in batteries(AA,AAA,C,D type). He has Never welded anything and served in a managerial role as Plant Manager. Although he frequently went into the plant and the place is literally covered in the ore dust. These lawyers will not talk to him about this as they are only concerned with welders. There is also a friend of his that goes to our church that worked in the plant close to 20 years who has alzheimers and is no showings signs of Parkinsons. I can't say it is the cause but if you have family members who have it I would make sure I take great precautions around welding. I know I will. You can't inherit it but mayby your genetic makeup makes you more likely to get it. Let's hope we don't find out the hard way.

 

[Junkman]

Does anyone know what the historical number of Parkinson's Disease cases is prior to the existence of welding. Since welding is a relatively new technique, possibly only about a 100 years old or less. How long has Parkinson's Disease symptoms been recognized? I remember as a child people that had the "shakes" and it might possibly have been Parkinson's. Are women effected? Is it hereditary?
I just did a Google search and found a good site with information. Read more about it here......

 

[KiotiJohn]

What I got was that you felt personally attacked my words, which may have a deeper meaning.
Thousand of people each year are killed in car accidents. Perhaps we should all stop driving.
Millions of people each year contract viruses and bacteria through air-borne particles. Perhaps we should stop breathing. John

 

[boustany]

Unfortunately, you can't really rely on old data for things like that. Lots of people die from misdiagnosis today, or die with a undiagnosed condition. Prior to all the developments in medical science the situation would have been much worse and the data wholly unreliable. Plus, people tended to die much younger which further distorts comparisons (for example, if you were going to die at 60 from cancer, but died from a mill accident at 45, the cancer rate appears lower).

Similarly, analysing a patient population and finding that one group (for example welders) is present more often in a statistically significant proportion tells you absolutely nothing about whether or not the disease is caused by welding. This is because even 'random' data has patterns in it if you look hard enough. This is also why they define target populations before doing drug tests, because you can, for example, find that 'all left handed tuba players with advanced lung cancer benefitted from the drug'.

Perhaps other studies which could find that exposure to manganese in other contexts (various other industries, ground water, and so on). If they also show an association, then you * may * be on to something.

In order to prove causation, you need a model and experimental (or other) proof that the model is valid. For example, you say manganese causes Parkinsons because ..., and you feed a bunch of mice or whatever, manganese and you see what happens.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the question at hand. Class action suits are not about what caused the problem (or most significantly, in this case assuming there is a cause/effect, should or could the welding industry have known this).

Now, everything I have ever read about MIG/TIG or stick welding (including books written 50 years ago) say: wear gloves, wear a full face mask, and work in a well ventilated environment. Not that that should count for anything ...

 

[Kevin_in_VA]

My 70 yr old uncle has Parkinsons and has never welded a day in his life. He was a typesetter by trade until he retired about 5 or 6 years ago.

Janet Reno has Parkinsons. I doubt if she has done any welding either.

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( My 70 yr old uncle has Parkinsons and has never welded a day in his life. )</font>
My mother, 76 years of age has suffered from Parkinson's for about the last 3-4 years. No one else anywhere in our family has had it, although there is eveidence that it can be genetically transmitted. Mom never welded.
There is a lot of evidence that manganese toxicity can destroy the dompamine producing cells and lead to Parkinson's, but there aren't enough empirical studies on welding/parkinson's to make any judgements.

 

[Kevin_in_VA]

It's also about 100% probability that living is a primary cause of death.

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It's also about 100% probability that living is a primary cause of death. )</font>
100% correct! J

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> My 70 yr old uncle has Parkinsons and has never welded a day in his life. </font>
And the relevance is? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Kevin_in_VA]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> And the relevance is? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif </font>
)</font>

The presuposition that welding contributes to Parkinsons disease is anecdotal at best, and until there is sufficient statistical evidence to support that position care should be taken but panic should not set in.

 

[jpr62902]

72% of all statistics are meaningless.

 

[5030]

And the other 27% don't hold water either.......how about 1% fac and 99% fiction (real or imagined).