well pump questions, jet vs submersable

[Dutch445]

seems a lot of us are dealing with water issues.

I am contemplating changing from our shallow
well pump in the basement, to a submersed
well pump for the well that supplies our home.

the current system works fine, until we use a larger
amount of water, 2 showers+laundry, or washing
lots of dishes in the sink along with a couple loads of
laundry, etc. If we are careful, space showers out,
and laundry gets done during down times, we are usually
ok. the problem lies when we do run the water for a bit,
this jet pump (single drop) will finally end up not being able
to overcome the lift height needed when we draw the well water
level down, and the pump will run for long periods, and i get nervous
and shut the pump down until the water level recovers a bit and
it's safe to bring the system up to full pressure. the pump runs off
it's switch, 30/50.

At a local home and garden show this weekend, I approached one of the
areas longstanding well drillers, and explained the situation, and that if
i was to drop a weight down past the inlet pipe to the bottom of the well,
i end up at about 45' down. currently i think the pump can only draw water
down 20-25' due to gravity etc. If I am thinking correctly, I should be able
to drop a submersible pump down near the bottom of this well and have the
usage of all of the water in the well, not just the top 20' or so. He said that
going with submersible would be the best solution and eliminate the noisy
pump in the basement, and increase our volume by the amount of water in
the bottom half of the well.

my questions are these:
current pump is 115v, and is one of my 8 circuits that come thru a generator
cutoff switch so I can maintain power to critical circuits when the grid does
down. I know submersible pumps come in 115v, and 220, and I'm reading
220is better. then there are 2 wire vs 3 wire type depending on whether you
install a control box in the house or get a pump that contains it.
with this being a relatively shallow well, easy to get to, what makes the most
sense to go with,, 115v or 220,, 2 wire or 3,?
how deep would this wire have to be buried as it goes from the house to the
well, approx 50', and under part of our driveway?
because the current pump never technically runs dry, what should
i really expect to gain in extra water volume? i guess that depends on
the recovery of the well, but with this pump setup it's not all that easy
to figure that out, let alone what it might be 35-40' down instead of 20.

so, does this all make sense?

 

[chh]

As you said how much you will gain will be depending on the recovery, but you will still be getting the usage of quite a bit of your storage capacity. I am not a well expert, must of what I know is just stuff I learned from plumbers I hired to help me, but I have been doing all my own well stuff for the last several years. I have not ever tried a 110V pump as I recall they did not meet the depth or flow needs I had. I know Lowes had a chart of their pumps and flow rates the last time I bought a pump several years ago. I used that to match my pump and tank to my expected use and well depth. I generally try not to get a pump closer than 5' from the bottom. You can probably find a similar chart online that would help you match all the numbers up. I generally bury wire in with the water line so I am not certain what depth is generally recommened. You will want to make sure it is deep enough not to be damaged during anytime of lawn work ect..

I prefer to use the pumps without the seperate control box. I like everything being together. That is my preference though and I know a pro who is just the opposite. My thinking though is, When it quits I will just change out the whole thing instead of trying to get someone to diagnose the problem and then paying to change it all out.

 

[Youare]

I had a similar situation 20+ years ago. The well was drilled 425 feet deep and the jet pump venturi and foot valve was set at 120 feet. Because of the recovery rate we could pump the water level below the pick up point.

With the help of my cousin I installed a submersable pump 20 feet from the bottom of the well. That took care of most of our issues. To take care of the pump running dry concern I install a pressure switch that has a low pressure cut-off. If the pressure at the switch drops below 15 or 20 pounds the switch will cut the power to the pump and leave it off until you manually reset it. That took the worry out of thje pump running dry.

It cost a few bucks to make the change but it was worth it.

Randy

 

[studor]

Dutch
The problem is that once you past the depth capabilities of the single line jet pump, you either need to double line or go submersible. By the time you dig down to the pitless adapter and replace it (for the double line it is expensive -- over 100 bucks) and put in the second line to the house, the submersible will seem very logical. The wire to the well depth be in the local electrical code. If my place had not been set up with the deep well jet double line to start with it would have had a submersible last time the pump failed. With your single line setup, it should be relatively easy to change over and take advantage of that extra well depth -- JMHO

 

[Egon]

Do you have any idea of the well flow rate?

How will you size the submersible?

Do you know if the well recharges quickly enough to provide more water at the deeper depth or will the only gain be the water volume in the well casing ?

I know these are not questions you wish to hear but they should be looked at before you go about making changes that may not be of significant benefit.

 

[capi75rs]

I've had both shallow and submersible pumps and will tell you I've had less problems with the submersible. My sub is 220v 2 wire. As far as telling you how to wire it up, I'm going to tell you to check your local electric code. Where I live we do not have an electric code and the way mine is done may not be legal in your area. As for your breaker box area, IF YOUR GEN WILL HOLD THE 220V LOAD AND CODE ALLOWS, you could get some split single pole breakers and insert a few of them and remove some of the other single pole breakers to gain enough space to put in a double pole breaker. Be aware that you MUST balance you load on each leg for your gen or you could have serious problems down the road. If your not sure how to do it I would contact a local electrican, it will cost you less to have it done the correct way the first time, then to have to pay for repairs later. Best of luck

 

[Dutch445]

Do you have any idea of the well flow rate?

How will you size the submersible?

Do you know if the well recharges quickly enough to provide more water at the deeper depth or will the only gain be the water volume in the well casing ?

I know these are not questions you wish to hear but they should be looked at before you go about making changes that may not be of significant benefit.

Thanks for the ideas. Egon, I can't say what the recovery really is. I was
told that the 1/2hp 7gpm pump would be good for us (according to the well drilling
representative I spoke with). I mentioned to him 115v or 220v, he said they have both, but tried to steer me to the 220, which I normally would not have
a problem with if it wasn't for my genny transfer box. (which only has 6 circuits, not 8 like I thought) Looking at the transfer box, there are 6 switches with 15amp breakers (fuses?) and each switch has a line/off/gen position. Not sure how that would work to try to feed something 220 out of it. It would be a fairly easy trench to get power to the well, and i would
probably run it all in a conduit since it's not that far.

As far as the well recharging, my thoughts are that it does recover
fairly well, as we really don't have a lot of casing capacity to use anyway.
I would imagine that recovery would be better the further you go down
the well?

thanks for the ideas

dutch

 

[Patriotic Stabilist]

Our well is over 30 years old or so we think. It was done long before we bought this house and it was a foreclosure so nothing was known. It can't be to deep as we have an above ground pump. It gives us plenty of excellent, fresh tasting water. Our well guy that put on a new tank said that we have some of the best water here in the country. We aren't to far from a river so I'm assuming that helps keep it charged.

Here in our county in Texas they keep talking about going to surface water as the acquifiers are getting drained and not getting recharged. Population growth has boomed and subsidence in a lot of areas is a problem. We are thinking of getting a new well drilled and possibly even capping it or using it to water the yard and garden. They are sitting up so many new regulations we are afraid they won't let us in the near future.

 

[moeh1]

Recovery won't be any better than you have now, but you will be able to drawdown to the pump depth. One of my 2 wells has had a 110V pump for the last 15 years (down 65ft). They can go even deeper, it is really the flow rate that suffers versus 220v units. I purposely put the 110 in for that reason so as to NOT draw the well down quickly. Given you generator situation, this may be a good way to go.

 

[Dutch445]

Recovery won't be any better than you have now, but you will be able to drawdown to the pump depth. One of my 2 wells has had a 110V pump for the last 15 years (down 65ft). They can go even deeper, it is really the flow rate that suffers versus 220v units. I purposely put the 110 in for that reason so as to NOT draw the well down quickly. Given you generator situation, this may be a good way to go.

I have the same concerns, and we have a marginal septic so I really wouldn't
want to open up to this high pressure/high volume scenario where people
would waste water also. The concern with 115 i guess would be the amperage,
would it draw more than the current pump is drawing? and with this well only at 45' down would the lifespan of a 115V really be that much less than 220?
If amperage would be similar to existing jet pump, then I'd probably be fine
running backup generator if need be. We don't run much heavy draw on the
generator, fridges, water pump, the microwave is the killer! Home heating is done with hand fired coal stove, so don't need genny for heat really.
Gary, you out there????

 

[heehaw]

looks like you have good advice from everyone: my two cents worth..i put a 115v submersible in a 30ft well a couple years ago: no more problems with having to prime the pump, an, since the well is right beside the bedroom, no pump noise: plus the submersible uses a lot less electricity per gallon of usable water.
heehaw

 

[aczlan]

I have the same concerns, and we have a marginal septic so I really wouldn't
want to open up to this high pressure/high volume scenario where people
would waste water also. The concern with 115 i guess would be the amperage,
would it draw more than the current pump is drawing? and with this well only at 45' down would the lifespan of a 115V really be that much less than 220?
If amperage would be similar to existing jet pump, then I'd probably be fine
running backup generator if need be. We don't run much heavy draw on the
generator, fridges, water pump, the microwave is the killer! Home heating is done with hand fired coal stove, so don't need genny for heat really.
Gary, you out there????

a 220v pump will be easier on the generator as it will be drawing (for example) 6A@110V from one side and 6A@110V from the other side of the 220V line. Whereas an equivalent 120V pump will draw 12A@110V from one side of the 220V from the generator, causing it be unequally loaded (which can break things if done too often), also a 220v motor will (generally, from what I have heard) run smoother and longer than a 110V one, this is because the two 110V legs balance each other out.

Aaron Z

 

[Dutch445]

here is a pic of my transfer switches:

and of my current pump setup:

i understand the theory of the 220 vs the 115 volt pumps,
but wiring into this generator switch doesn't look all that
"easy" to do.

 

[tommu56]

Dutch
submersible would be your best bet if you have 6" casing that is about 1 gallon a foot of storage

You can try a pump test measure water level static pump at an open flow in to a bucket or drum to get gpm and measure drop in water level.
Is there a 220 volt outlet on generator?
I think so because of how the transfer panel is set up.

You could pump on demand unplug house plug in pump and pump and switch back.

How big is the gen can it run house and pump at the same time? (always the $64.00 question).

tom

 

[Dutch445]

the genny is 5500 , and i'm sure it has 220 someplace,
but the way this house was wired, i bring the genny outside
to the garage, slide it inside the open garage door, and plug
it into the receptacle in the garage, and then the power wire
comes underground to the house and into that transfer box.
really nice setup, keeps it out of the weather and nobody dies
from fumes! (detached garage)

so, i'll have to look at this more, see what amps
existing jet is pulling etc..

 

[studor]

My bet is that you currently have a 1/2 hp on that jet pump and you are probably looking at a 1/2 hp submersible. Amperage draw should be roughly the same. As I remember it (and I could be wrong but someone will tell me ) the choice between 220 and 115 is usually made due to wire size and amperage draw on startup. For example if you have a 14 gauge wire 15 amp circuit on your pump and it draws fifteen amps on startup you will be close to maxing out the draw on the circuit which is not good for the motor or the circuit. If you rewired it to 220 the startup amps would be 7.5, well within the capability of the circuit and easier on the startup windings of the motor. Since your distance to the well is not overly long, you can avoid the problem by going with thicker wire and leaving it 115 (my other bet is the amperage draw is not that high) The pump manufacturer provides a table of wire size for required distance on their web sites and in instructions with the pump.
Of course the other thing you could do is go 220 and wire it into a plug run from the main box and then buy a long enough cord to run from the generator to the pump plug and use the manual connect/disconnect method -- how often does your power go out?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Thanks for the ideas. Egon, I can't say what the recovery really is. I was
told that the 1/2hp 7gpm pump would be good for us (according to the well drilling
representative I spoke with).As far as the well recharging, my thoughts are that it does recover
fairly well, as we really don't have a lot of casing capacity to use anyway.
I would imagine that recovery would be better the further you go down
the well?

thanks for the ideas

dutch

Yes, the bottom of the well will deliver water faster than points further up in the well that are nearer the the level of the water table. The reason is that as you pump the water down in the casing the head from the outside to inside increases, driving water into the casing faster. Your submersible, situated further down, will therefore deliver more water continuously w/o running dry than you can from a water pickup point located higher in the well.

7gpm is good delivery. We have a 10gpm in our well and sometimes it does pump it all the way down and suck air. You will see tiny air bubbles in the water when this happens. This is not the same as running dry. The pump is still pumping water even tho the well is not replenishing it as fast as the pump can pump. The water will still cool the pump and no damage will occur unless the situation is prolonged. If you notice a sudden loss of pressure during heavy water use you can be sure youre sucking some air and pretty soon you will get get some milky looking water coming out that clarifies immediately as the bubbles rise out. It wont take long to learn how to gauge your usage to minimize this. Sometimes you wont notice anything except a little milky water later after a minor slurp.
larry

 

[Egon]

I've been told the object is to have the pump sized to less than the recharge rate so pump is always pumping water.

 

[dex3361]

I have a 45' well with a 240V 1/2 HP submersable pump (Red Jacket brand) it is the 2 wire type without a capacitor box. I also have the a lightning arrestors installed at the switch and the pressure switch is the type that shuts off the pump if the pressure continues to drop below the kick on set point (it has been in service for 21 years).

I also run my house off of a 240V 4500 Watt gen. that is hooked up in my detached garage. I like this setup for the saftey factor. From the looks of the transfer switch an electrician could possibly rearrange the circuts and fit your 240V well pump circut in. It would depend on what the other circuts are feeding and the wire sizes.

 

[Dutch445]

took a look at the pump tonight,
it's a gould, and it's dual voltage.
currently wired into 115, the label
says it's draw is 8.6 amps, with a
max load of 10.8
obviously the 230v ratings are 1/2
the 115.

i'll have to investigate sub pumps more,
i'm leaning towards a good 115v,
1/2hp, 7gpm.......