well pump questions, jet vs submersable

[Dutch445]

seems a lot of us are dealing with water issues.

I am contemplating changing from our shallow
well pump in the basement, to a submersed
well pump for the well that supplies our home.

the current system works fine, until we use a larger
amount of water, 2 showers+laundry, or washing
lots of dishes in the sink along with a couple loads of
laundry, etc. If we are careful, space showers out,
and laundry gets done during down times, we are usually
ok. the problem lies when we do run the water for a bit,
this jet pump (single drop) will finally end up not being able
to overcome the lift height needed when we draw the well water
level down, and the pump will run for long periods, and i get nervous
and shut the pump down until the water level recovers a bit and
it's safe to bring the system up to full pressure. the pump runs off
it's switch, 30/50.

At a local home and garden show this weekend, I approached one of the
areas longstanding well drillers, and explained the situation, and that if
i was to drop a weight down past the inlet pipe to the bottom of the well,
i end up at about 45' down. currently i think the pump can only draw water
down 20-25' due to gravity etc. If I am thinking correctly, I should be able
to drop a submersible pump down near the bottom of this well and have the
usage of all of the water in the well, not just the top 20' or so. He said that
going with submersible would be the best solution and eliminate the noisy
pump in the basement, and increase our volume by the amount of water in
the bottom half of the well.

my questions are these:
current pump is 115v, and is one of my 8 circuits that come thru a generator
cutoff switch so I can maintain power to critical circuits when the grid does
down. I know submersible pumps come in 115v, and 220, and I'm reading
220is better. then there are 2 wire vs 3 wire type depending on whether you
install a control box in the house or get a pump that contains it.
with this being a relatively shallow well, easy to get to, what makes the most
sense to go with,, 115v or 220,, 2 wire or 3,?
how deep would this wire have to be buried as it goes from the house to the
well, approx 50', and under part of our driveway?
because the current pump never technically runs dry, what should
i really expect to gain in extra water volume? i guess that depends on
the recovery of the well, but with this pump setup it's not all that easy
to figure that out, let alone what it might be 35-40' down instead of 20.

so, does this all make sense?

 

[chh]

As you said how much you will gain will be depending on the recovery, but you will still be getting the usage of quite a bit of your storage capacity. I am not a well expert, must of what I know is just stuff I learned from plumbers I hired to help me, but I have been doing all my own well stuff for the last several years. I have not ever tried a 110V pump as I recall they did not meet the depth or flow needs I had. I know Lowes had a chart of their pumps and flow rates the last time I bought a pump several years ago. I used that to match my pump and tank to my expected use and well depth. I generally try not to get a pump closer than 5' from the bottom. You can probably find a similar chart online that would help you match all the numbers up. I generally bury wire in with the water line so I am not certain what depth is generally recommened. You will want to make sure it is deep enough not to be damaged during anytime of lawn work ect..

I prefer to use the pumps without the seperate control box. I like everything being together. That is my preference though and I know a pro who is just the opposite. My thinking though is, When it quits I will just change out the whole thing instead of trying to get someone to diagnose the problem and then paying to change it all out.

 

[Youare]

I had a similar situation 20+ years ago. The well was drilled 425 feet deep and the jet pump venturi and foot valve was set at 120 feet. Because of the recovery rate we could pump the water level below the pick up point.

With the help of my cousin I installed a submersable pump 20 feet from the bottom of the well. That took care of most of our issues. To take care of the pump running dry concern I install a pressure switch that has a low pressure cut-off. If the pressure at the switch drops below 15 or 20 pounds the switch will cut the power to the pump and leave it off until you manually reset it. That took the worry out of thje pump running dry.

It cost a few bucks to make the change but it was worth it.

Randy

 

[studor]

Dutch
The problem is that once you past the depth capabilities of the single line jet pump, you either need to double line or go submersible. By the time you dig down to the pitless adapter and replace it (for the double line it is expensive -- over 100 bucks) and put in the second line to the house, the submersible will seem very logical. The wire to the well depth be in the local electrical code. If my place had not been set up with the deep well jet double line to start with it would have had a submersible last time the pump failed. With your single line setup, it should be relatively easy to change over and take advantage of that extra well depth -- JMHO

 

[Egon]

Do you have any idea of the well flow rate?

How will you size the submersible?

Do you know if the well recharges quickly enough to provide more water at the deeper depth or will the only gain be the water volume in the well casing ?

I know these are not questions you wish to hear but they should be looked at before you go about making changes that may not be of significant benefit.

 

[capi75rs]

I've had both shallow and submersible pumps and will tell you I've had less problems with the submersible. My sub is 220v 2 wire. As far as telling you how to wire it up, I'm going to tell you to check your local electric code. Where I live we do not have an electric code and the way mine is done may not be legal in your area. As for your breaker box area, IF YOUR GEN WILL HOLD THE 220V LOAD AND CODE ALLOWS, you could get some split single pole breakers and insert a few of them and remove some of the other single pole breakers to gain enough space to put in a double pole breaker. Be aware that you MUST balance you load on each leg for your gen or you could have serious problems down the road. If your not sure how to do it I would contact a local electrican, it will cost you less to have it done the correct way the first time, then to have to pay for repairs later. Best of luck

 

[Dutch445]

Do you have any idea of the well flow rate?

How will you size the submersible?

Do you know if the well recharges quickly enough to provide more water at the deeper depth or will the only gain be the water volume in the well casing ?

I know these are not questions you wish to hear but they should be looked at before you go about making changes that may not be of significant benefit.

Thanks for the ideas. Egon, I can't say what the recovery really is. I was
told that the 1/2hp 7gpm pump would be good for us (according to the well drilling
representative I spoke with). I mentioned to him 115v or 220v, he said they have both, but tried to steer me to the 220, which I normally would not have
a problem with if it wasn't for my genny transfer box. (which only has 6 circuits, not 8 like I thought) Looking at the transfer box, there are 6 switches with 15amp breakers (fuses?) and each switch has a line/off/gen position. Not sure how that would work to try to feed something 220 out of it. It would be a fairly easy trench to get power to the well, and i would
probably run it all in a conduit since it's not that far.

As far as the well recharging, my thoughts are that it does recover
fairly well, as we really don't have a lot of casing capacity to use anyway.
I would imagine that recovery would be better the further you go down
the well?

thanks for the ideas

dutch

 

[Patriotic Stabilist]

Our well is over 30 years old or so we think. It was done long before we bought this house and it was a foreclosure so nothing was known. It can't be to deep as we have an above ground pump. It gives us plenty of excellent, fresh tasting water. Our well guy that put on a new tank said that we have some of the best water here in the country. We aren't to far from a river so I'm assuming that helps keep it charged.

Here in our county in Texas they keep talking about going to surface water as the acquifiers are getting drained and not getting recharged. Population growth has boomed and subsidence in a lot of areas is a problem. We are thinking of getting a new well drilled and possibly even capping it or using it to water the yard and garden. They are sitting up so many new regulations we are afraid they won't let us in the near future.

 

[moeh1]

Recovery won't be any better than you have now, but you will be able to drawdown to the pump depth. One of my 2 wells has had a 110V pump for the last 15 years (down 65ft). They can go even deeper, it is really the flow rate that suffers versus 220v units. I purposely put the 110 in for that reason so as to NOT draw the well down quickly. Given you generator situation, this may be a good way to go.

 

[Dutch445]

Recovery won't be any better than you have now, but you will be able to drawdown to the pump depth. One of my 2 wells has had a 110V pump for the last 15 years (down 65ft). They can go even deeper, it is really the flow rate that suffers versus 220v units. I purposely put the 110 in for that reason so as to NOT draw the well down quickly. Given you generator situation, this may be a good way to go.

I have the same concerns, and we have a marginal septic so I really wouldn't
want to open up to this high pressure/high volume scenario where people
would waste water also. The concern with 115 i guess would be the amperage,
would it draw more than the current pump is drawing? and with this well only at 45' down would the lifespan of a 115V really be that much less than 220?
If amperage would be similar to existing jet pump, then I'd probably be fine
running backup generator if need be. We don't run much heavy draw on the
generator, fridges, water pump, the microwave is the killer! Home heating is done with hand fired coal stove, so don't need genny for heat really.
Gary, you out there????