Western versus Eastern technology competition

[Redneck in training]

You seem very pressed to prove American superiority. But lets face the facts: Goddard improved flares into crude rockets to get to 2 miles height, which was unheard of at that time. The Germans were able to launch a rocket and direct it from the launch site in Ommen, a place some 5 miles from my birthplace, to Antwerp and London. It was terrifying at that time because it was so unknown. Both the Americans and the Russians re assembled these V2 rockets and reverse engineered them. From that point onwards, Sergej Korolyov got two dogs into space, then got the Sputnik into orbit. The American Redstone programs with the monkey, failed, they were lagging behind. Then Wernher von Braun and his team of German engineers had their go with the Saturn program which was on hold since 1954 and which, with American money, brought eventually men on the moon.

You can argue that the credit for the moon landing shouldnt be to the German engineers that made it happen but to the Greek, because they used the theorem of pythagoras to measure the squareness of the launch pad, but every new technology is based on the work of previous accomplishments by others....

Really, i am far from anti America, nor anti the American political system, but i insist on giving credit where credit is due... The space race was between German engineers (with US funds) and Soviet engineers (with Soviet funds) untill 1969 the Americans lagged behind. In the 80's the Soviets ground to a halt because their system of government was unsustainable by every means.

Space program in USSR was used largely for propaganda. Their program was veiled in secrecy so all the failures were hidden from public. They also put all the resources to single program that would hurt the Americans the most at given time. American program was pretty much in public eye. It was also much wider than Russian and significantly more research oriented. Americans announced their goals while USSR didn't. Allan Shepard flew in space about a month after Gagarin. It doesn't look like to me as much lagging. In 1958 USA launched about twice as many satellites to orbit than USSR. Most of communication, meteorogical and space research satellites were launched by USA.

 

[Redneck in training]

When I was in school we were taught that pretty much al inventions were first made in Russia or USSR. We used to joke about that they also had the tallest dwarf on the world. The fact is that every population has about the same number of geniuses and smart people. But some societies allow them to succeed while in others they shovel dirt somewhere. Russia was one of the fastest developing countries before the revolution. No doubt Russia shared good deal of inventions at the time but definitely not all of them.
As West sped forward Eastern bloc was lagging being more and more. I have a friend who was an engineer in a research institution developing computers. He said they just bought first samples of Intel microprocessors and it took them few months to copy them. Shortly after they got another batch of the same processors but when they analyzed them they were completely different inside that the first batch. 286 took about a year to copy, when they copied 386 486 was already obsolete.
Between 1978 and 1980 I was working on pipeline construction in Russia. Since there was an American embargo on gas turbines and their control system the machines were made in Italy under GE license. They had very special flavor, just for USSR, of the control system. It was non redundant, all the components looked the same, had no labels and were covered by very hard resin so removal of any component damaged the board.

 

[Redneck in training]

I hope i dont offend anyone, but i get the feeling that only the people who keep dreaming and never take action to change their own life for the better, would long for the commie days....

I am not offended. There were brave dreamers that took action such as built hot air baloon and flew whole family across the border. I was not that brave but still I left at first chance I got. It just took longer I guess.

 

[Renze]

Space program in USSR was used largely for propaganda. Their program was veiled in secrecy so all the failures were hidden from public. They also put all the resources to single program that would hurt the Americans the most at given time. American program was pretty much in public eye. It was also much wider than Russian and significantly more research oriented. Americans announced their goals while USSR didn't. Allan Shepard flew in space about a month after Gagarin. It doesn't look like to me as much lagging. In 1958 USA launched about twice as many satellites to orbit than USSR. Most of communication, meteorogical and space research satellites were launched by USA.

Noteworthy is that both parties prime interest in rocket technology was to be able to build missiles that could deliver a nuke to the other side... the Russians had the first two propaganda achievements by putting the first sattelite into orbit, bring back the first living creatures from space, and bring back the first man from space. When the Americans actually landed on another planet (moon, which actually isnt a real planet) the next superlative (landing on mars, Venus) would be way beyond the funds available, the more because the moon has little gravity (16.6% of earths gravity) so its easier to carry rocket fuel into space to be able to jet off the moon gravity, than to jet off Venus (90.7%) or Mars (37%) gravity... (they already used multistage rockets to escape from earths gravtiy pull alone, even today it would be plain crazy to build a monster rocket able to take all that rocket fuel into space, which is needed to leave the gravity of other planets... The sole reason that everyone speaks of Mars as the next planet to visit, is because it has a low gravity.

If you watch the BBC documentary Space Race, you see how they planned to stuff Sputnik with research equipment, but their electronics werent sophisticated enough to make it portable into space so they just put a simple radio transmitter in the sattelite... I agree that as a whole, the US space program was more sophisticated but fact remains that the Russians did it on their own, while the Americans needed the German team to bring them to the moon, and take the final leap in the space race once and for all... Short said, Russians were planting flags in space, with fewer cautions to kosmonauts safety, while the Americans were building infrastructure. Thats why the Russians kept just one step ahead of the Americans untill 1969

You see it in weapon systems too, a T-72 was a fine, reliable tank for its days, but its weapon guidance and aim systems were vastly outdated by American control systems.

 

[Renze]

I am not offended. There were brave dreamers that took action such as built hot air baloon and flew whole family across the border. I was not that brave but still I left at first chance I got. It just took longer I guess.

To make sure were talking about the same thing, I said that in reaction to this:

Now the life is more unpredictable, many people would prefer security before gain. Some people feel threatened. People also remember the good and forget the bad. We used to dream about leaving the country just to see what out there behind the border. Now people are free to go wherever they wish to go but don't have always the means. We used dream about better places and fortunate people living there but now faced with reality those dreams are shuttered. People miss dreams.

What i meant was, the people that would long for the old commie days, were probably the people that were ok with the government controlling their lives, showing very little initiative, and in a free society would be the people that, as we say here "cannot see the work right in front of them" but need to be initiated by a foreman for every single task... I have lead a production department after the foreman had enough of it and went to another company, but for me, as a "gitter done" type of person, it was sometimes hard to stay calm when you found out that workers spent their time inefficient when i was in the office minding my own engineering job, because they didnt show any initiative and were waiting for you to tell them what to do... I mean, i can imagine only those type of people would take security and predictability over freedom...

 

[Redneck in training]

To make sure were talking about the same thing, I said that in reaction to this:



What i meant was, the people that would long for the old commie days, were probably the people that were ok with the government controlling their lives, showing very little initiative, and in a free society would be the people that, as we say here "cannot see the work right in front of them" but need to be initiated by a foreman for every single task... I have lead a production department after the foreman had enough of it and went to another company, but for me, as a "gitter done" type of person, it was sometimes hard to stay calm when you found out that workers spent their time inefficient when i was in the office minding my own engineering job, because they didnt show any initiative and were waiting for you to tell them what to do... I mean, i can imagine only those type of people would take security and predictability over freedom...

Exactly. The problem is there is lot of them. On the other side of the spectrum are in example immigrants. Immigrants are disproportionally successful people in the USA (and in other place too I suppose) because they are self-selected kind of people who have ambition and act.
Initiative was discouraged in country of my birth. If you stepped out of the line they would "beat" you back there. Do not rock the boat, don't cause any trouble. That was the mantra.



My father was ambitious man, idealist and serial inventor. But he saw only few of his inventions realized and even less reward for them. He dreamed that one day he would made stuff that would make the world a better place. He died young at 52 because he couldn't take the regime anymore. He got some hart trouble and refused to see a doctor. It killed him. Attached is a picture of a motorcycle he built sometime before 1950. It was quite few years ahead of time. The frame was made from chrome-molybdenum tubing, front and rear telescopes were made from Al and had hydraulic shocks, engine was 500 ccm, single OHC, dry sump. There were only few parts that were not made by him. Magneto, carburetor, nuts and bolts, wheel rims and spokes, gearbox, break and throttle cables etc. Two of them were made.

 

[Renze]

Initiative was discouraged in country of my birth. If you stepped out of the line they would "beat" you back there. Do not rock the boat, don't cause any trouble. That was the mantra.

That reminds me of the paint job of our Slovakian contractor... Our previous purchaser selected a certain brand of paint to be used by all suppliers, so that there would be no differences in the shades of a standardised RAL colour (which happens between different paint brands despite standardisation) At a given time we had spoken so many times about paint quality, incomplete blasting and incomplete priming, problems that showed during assembly because the paint just came off when a tool touched it. The paint shop in Holland that did all the touchups and resprays for us, sprayed a machine with that brand of paint just once, the next time, he told us, he wouldnt use that crap again because it was thin as water, running off the surface and requiring several layers to get cover: He could not meet his own standard of workmanship with the paint we told him to use.

When i heard what the Dutch paint shop owner said, bluntly direct, i thought if the Slovak workers feel the same way about the paint we tell them to use, they never going to say it this direct, just because of the cultural difference, caused by half a century of Soviet government in which it was dangerous to question what they told you...
We told them what paint to use, and perhaps they knew it was crappy paint to but just didnt say so, and smeared it on carelessly because the paint was a b*tch to work with and nearly impossible to get a good result anyways so why bother...

I told the project manager of the Slovakian contractor what our Dutch paint shop owner had said, and asked him to ask what his painters thought of this paint: He defended himself by saying "but that paint was selected by the pruchaser of your company, so thats why we use only that, as told !" I said he doesnt work here anymore and i dont give a crap about what he said, he doesnt have to paint with it, but your guys do, so i want their opinion !

I said, i am going to ask you: Please talk to the guys of the paint shop and ask them what they think of this paint. And ask them whatever brand of paint they want to use: A few bucks on a can of paint, is nothing compared to the respray of an entire machine, so let them tell us what paint they need in order to give us results !! But then on the other side: If they again deliver poor workmanship, you can hold them accountable because we gave them the paint they wanted !! It was quiet for some seconds on the other side of the phone, i didnt get an immediate answer, but the paint job DID improve significantly after they switched to Akzo Nobel paint (and involving the people motivated them again to take pride in good workmanship...

View attachment 350382

My father was ambitious man, idealist and serial inventor. But he saw only few of his inventions realized and even less reward for them. He dreamed that one day he would made stuff that would make the world a better place. He died young at 52 because he couldn't take the regime anymore. He got some hart trouble and refused to see a doctor. It killed him. Attached is a picture of a motorcycle he built sometime before 1950. It was quite few years ahead of time. The frame was made from chrome-molybdenum tubing, front and rear telescopes were made from Al and had hydraulic shocks, engine was 500 ccm, single OHC, dry sump. There were only few parts that were not made by him. Magneto, carburetor, nuts and bolts, wheel rims and spokes, gearbox, break and throttle cables etc. Two of them were made.

Those guys from Orange County Choppers could learn from that, because allmost every bike they make is made of wholesale bike parts...

speaking of bikes, another interesting thing is the Czech Jawa speedway bike racing engine. the 1965 4 valve engine with desmodromic valves (forced shutting of valves by the camshaft, not just the valve spring) was so successful that at a certain time it was banned from the track because it excelled so much... Even Jesse James is wearing a Jawa shirt, Jawa speedway bikes are known and used worldwide, even before the iron curtain fell..

 

[ArtMech]

I am currently working in Venezuela. It is like deja vu. I feel like returning back to Czechoslovakia in 1985.

So you didn't escape far from '85s? :laughing::laughing:
Tell us something more about Venezuela, about you job there (if you can, indeed). How could we call that country since it's neither Western nor Eastern? Have thousands of new Belarus tractors reached the country? I know it, 'cause Lukashenko transported them via Klaipeda port.

 

[Redneck in training]

That reminds me of the paint job of our Slovakian contractor... Our previous purchaser selected a certain brand of paint to be used by all suppliers, so that there would be no differences in the shades of a standardised RAL colour (which happens between different paint brands despite standardisation) At a given time we had spoken so many times about paint quality, incomplete blasting and incomplete priming, problems that showed during assembly because the paint just came off when a tool touched it. The paint shop in Holland that did all the touchups and resprays for us, sprayed a machine with that brand of paint just once, the next time, he told us, he wouldnt use that crap again because it was thin as water, running off the surface and requiring several layers to get cover: He could not meet his own standard of workmanship with the paint we told him to use.

When i heard what the Dutch paint shop owner said, bluntly direct, i thought if the Slovak workers feel the same way about the paint we tell them to use, they never going to say it this direct, just because of the cultural difference, caused by half a century of Soviet government in which it was dangerous to question what they told you...
We told them what paint to use, and perhaps they knew it was crappy paint to but just didnt say so, and smeared it on carelessly because the paint was a b*tch to work with and nearly impossible to get a good result anyways so why bother...

I told the project manager of the Slovakian contractor what our Dutch paint shop owner had said, and asked him to ask what his painters thought of this paint: He defended himself by saying "but that paint was selected by the pruchaser of your company, so thats why we use only that, as told !" I said he doesnt work here anymore and i dont give a crap about what he said, he doesnt have to paint with it, but your guys do, so i want their opinion !

I said, i am going to ask you: Please talk to the guys of the paint shop and ask them what they think of this paint. And ask them whatever brand of paint they want to use: A few bucks on a can of paint, is nothing compared to the respray of an entire machine, so let them tell us what paint they need in order to give us results !! But then on the other side: If they again deliver poor workmanship, you can hold them accountable because we gave them the paint they wanted !! It was quiet for some seconds on the other side of the phone, i didnt get an immediate answer, but the paint job DID improve significantly after they switched to Akzo Nobel paint (and involving the people motivated them again to take pride in good workmanship...

You just nailed it.



Those guys from Orange County Choppers could learn from that, because allmost every bike they make is made of wholesale bike parts...

speaking of bikes, another interesting thing is the Czech Jawa speedway bike racing engine. the 1965 4 valve engine with desmodromic valves (forced shutting of valves by the camshaft, not just the valve spring) was so successful that at a certain time it was banned from the track because it excelled so much... Even Jesse James is wearing a Jawa shirt, Jawa speedway bikes are known and used worldwide, even before the iron curtain fell..

My father made several racing, at least one speedway and few motocross bikes. In the early years after the war road racing was a great sport. Most of the bikes were made in somebody's garage so the competition was more or less equal. Then the Czechoslovakian Auto Moto Club purchased several factory made racing bikes and it was end of the sport because nobody could beat them. Then my father switched to outboard engines and I and my younger brother used to race boats in 175 ccm class. We were too young to get a moped DL but could race boats.:laughing:

The JAWA speedway bikes were named ESO in CZ. Speedway Bikes: JOLI ESO Speedway Bike

 

[RobertN]

We have good Speedway races locally(well, 45 minutes away). It is great to watch. Usually during the season some of the local folks go to Europe, and vica-versa, we get some teams from Europe come over. It is great racing to watch. 0-60mph in a couple seconds, no brakes...
Fast Fridays Motorcycle Speedway Auburn CA

My father made several racing, at least one speedway and few motocross bikes. In the early years after the war road racing was a great sport. Most of the bikes were made in somebody's garage so the competition was mor

The JAWA speedway bikes were named ESO in CZ. Speedway Bikes: JOLI ESO Speedway Bike