Western versus Eastern technology competition

[Redneck in training]

I looked at several Speedway web sites. Looks like the JAWA is still quite dominant bike there.

 

[Renze]

I allways related socialism to the Soviet Union and, instead of what marxists say about capitalism (the rich capital owners holding the workers in a stranglehold) to communism as a bunch of elitist rulers holding the people in a stranglehold, but now i decided to read the "communist manifesto" by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels to see what they really intended, to see how far off their vision was to what the USSR really became... Just to gain general knowledge and find out why its still appealing to the left, after having seen the millions of deaths caused by tyrants put in place by revolutionaries that started off with socialist ideals...

 

[k0ua]

Renze I don't see how you think that our Soviet friends got into space all by themselves.. I contend they had some help from the Germans fresh out of WWII also. This is not to denigrate Soviet achievements, which they were first on many fronts, but just to put it into prospective that both countries used prior knowledge whenever they could. See below:

During the 1930s Soviet rocket technology was comparable to Germany’s, but Joseph Stalin’s
Great Purge severely damaged its progress. Many leading engineers were killed, and Korolyov
and others were imprisoned in the Gulag. Although the Katyusha was very effective on the
Eastern Front during World War II, the advanced state of the German rocket program amazed
Russian engineers who inspected its remains at Peenemünde and Mittelwerk after the end of
the war in Europe. Although the Americans had secretly moved most leading German scientists
and 100 V-2 rockets to the United States in Operation Paperclip the Russian program greatly
benefited from captured German records and scientists, in particular drawings obtained from
the V-2 production sites. Under the direction of Dimitri Ustinov, Korolyov and others
inspected the drawings. Helped by rocket scientist Helmut Gröttrup and other captured Germans
until the early 1950s,they built a replica of the V-2 called the R-1, although
the weight of Soviet nuclear warheads required a more powerful booster. Korolyov’s OKB-1 design
bureau was dedicated to the liquid-fueled cryogenic rockets he had been experimenting with in
the late 1930s. Ultimately, this work resulted in the design of the R-7 Semyorkal
intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) which was successfully tested in August 1957.

 

[Redneck in training]

I allways related socialism to the Soviet Union and, instead of what marxists say about capitalism (the rich capital owners holding the workers in a stranglehold) to communism as a bunch of elitist rulers holding the people in a stranglehold, but now i decided to read the "communist manifesto" by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels to see what they really intended, to see how far off their vision was to what the USSR really became... Just to gain general knowledge and find out why its still appealing to the left, after having seen the millions of deaths caused by tyrants put in place by revolutionaries that started off with socialist ideals...

The premise of socialism was good. It says: "Everybody will be rewarded according his/her contribution." It also said: "All people will be equal." Or something in this sense. The reality was quite different though. We used to say that some people were "more equal" than the rest of us. The problem was that small group of people held all the power and we couldn't get rid of them. On the lower level the country was run by bureaucrats that have to be members of communist party but most of them cared very little about the dogma. They were there because their position provided better life. The system was very corrupt. So called scientific planning of economy was a joke. The communists decided that people don't need cars so they build housing complexes where buildings were so close that there was no room for parking and some apartments never saw sun. Socialism was supposed to cure the ills (such as exploitation) of the capitalism but at the end it was quite opposite. Instead all people had their needs met nobody did. Except the top more equal people.
Money is great motivator. Since this concept was removed there was no progress or only moderate progress. There were some exceptions such as products that could be sold in the West (or weapons) so the people controlling the export could stuff their Swiss bank accounts.

When DDT was banned guess where it all ended up. I heard a story told by a guy I used to know. He was an agronomist at a collective farm. They got a truck load of DDT and were told to use it. Instead they dug a hole lined it with foot of concrete, threw all the DDT there and covered it up with contrete. It is still there somewhere like ticking time bomb. Somebody from those more equal people got a kickback for buying it.

For a while we tried to make stuff better thinking what we would leave for our children and then tried to screw everything up so the regime would fail rather sooner than later. It was schizophrenic.

Speaking about weapons there are sveral manufacturers that make worls class guns in CZ. Ceska Zbrojovka comes in mind. Shotguns - Ceska zbrojovka
Since this is a tractor site. Here is a link to Czech tractor manuafcturer. ZETOR NORTH AMERICA

Capitalism is not perfect system but so far it provided better life for many people.

 

[Renze]

Renze I don't see how you think that our Soviet friends got into space all by themselves.. I contend they had some help from the Germans fresh out of WWII also. This is not to denigrate Soviet achievements, which they were first on many fronts, but just to put it into prospective that both countries used prior knowledge whenever they could.

what you say is true, but the curious detail is that Germans working in Russia were sent back to the DDR in the early 50s after helping to build a Russian replica of the V2, after which Korolyov's team continued on their own to build the technology that actually put Sputnik, Laika and Yuri Gagarin in space. The Americans however, held the German team back because they wanted the moon landing to be an all-american achievement. When their own team failed, the German Von Braun team built the rocket that put the US flag on the moon... Both countries used the same V2 technology from the Germans, but developed their own more advanced rockets to get to space. The Russian R7 rocket was designed by Russians (based on German V2 tech) and the American Saturn rocket was designed by Germans (based on German V2 tech)

 

[Redneck in training]

I am not sure that Americans held the Germans. My guess is that Germans wanted to stay to acchive what was their aim at the first place. Get people in space. I don't think Werner Von Braun wated to make rockets to kill people but in contrary. But given the circumstances didn't have much choice. In fact there were many German scientists that sabotaged the development of weapons by "improving" and reworking the production equipment. I would also guess that Werner Von Braun would prefer to launch racket to the space from German soil. But Germany was pretty much leveled off and he would be dead before it would muster enough industrial and finacial might to do so.

The scientists are often not in love with despots.
The commies wanted total control over media so they decided that we (In Czechoslovakia) will have only cable radio. They spent significant amount of money but the project failed anyway. I am guessing that the people who were supposed to develop and inastalled it wrecked the effort. Cable TV project never left the ground so to speak.

 

[Redneck in training]

BTW what is your story RENZE? Were you born in DDR?

 

[aczlan]

I am not sure that Americans held the Germans. My guess is that Germans wanted to stay to acchive what was their aim at the first place. Get people in space. I don't think Werner Von Braun wated to make rockets to kill people but in contrary. But given the circumstances didn't have much choice. In fact there were many German scientists that sabotaged the development of weapons by "improving" and reworking the production equipment. I would also guess that Werner Von Braun would prefer to launch racket to the space from German soil. But Germany was pretty much leveled off and he would be dead before it would muster enough industrial and finacial might to do so.

And the scientists probbaly preferred being here in the US to being in the "kind arms of Mother Russia"

Aaron Z

 

[Redneck in training]

And the scientists probbaly preferred being here in the US to being in the "kind arms of Mother Russia"

Aaron Z

That is for sure. People were disappearing without a trace in Russia and in fact in CZ too. People were sent to prison or simply shot somewhere accused of escaping arrest. Father of classmate of mine got 30 years of hard labor in uranium mine for giving a ride to people who were later that day caught crossing border to Germany. He served 16 years or so. None of his three boys were allowed to go to more desirable school. Two became masons and the oldest one was self-taught PLC programmer and he was only one who could maintain traffic lights in the city. So much talent was lost during those years. The real reason was ownership of landscaping business that he didn't want give up.

When I worked in Russia between 1978 and 1980 I took a picture of our car at the gas station. Policeman saw me and pulled film from my camera. Russians were totally paranoid. Everyone from abroad was a spy.

 

[ArtMech]

Speaking about weapons there are sveral manufacturers that make worls class guns in CZ. Ceska Zbrojovka comes in mind.

Freedom fighters of LT after the WW2 had been using the Czechoslovakian guns among others in the battles against soviets.
Lithuanian partisans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia