Western versus Eastern technology competition

[Redneck in training]

What!!!! No, no, noooo, it's not enough! You should apologize on behalf of the entire Roman Empire!!! :laughing::laughing:

I apologize for my omission.

 

[ArtMech]

I apologize for my mistake.

It's nice to have a joke with you. :thumbsup:

Going back to the subject - we face strange consequences of the new era here. Many guys became criminals, the jails are overloaded. Corruption, robbery, suicide, murders, catastrophic road accidents under alcohol or drugs is a daily routine. It's hard to believe, that the things are going the same way in the other countries. Some people say this is because we've lost God. Some say it's a first breath of democracy, which often is mixed with anarchy. Who knows how long will it last if it's a case. Parliament is tightening responsibility, it is increasing penalties and sentences, but meanwhile nothing helps. Hope other countries not suffer such headaches much.

 

[dave1949]

It's nice to have a joke with you. :thumbsup:

Going back to the subject - we face strange consequences of the new era here. Many guys became criminals, the jails are overloaded. Corruption, robbery, suicide, murders, catastrophic road accidents under alcohol or drugs is a daily routine. It's hard to believe, that the things are going the same way in the other countries. Some people say this is because we've lost God. Some say it's a first breath of democracy, which often is mixed with anarchy. Who knows how long will it last if it's a case. Parliament is tightening responsibility, it is increasing penalties and sentences, but meanwhile nothing helps. Hope other countries not suffer such headaches much.

Welcome to the messiness of a free society. LOL

If you think about it, most of the hot topics discussed here such as guns, religions, government controls, etc., are really cost-benefit analyses of the limits on personal freedoms.

 

[Redneck in training]

It's nice to have a joke with you. :thumbsup:

Going back to the subject - we face strange consequences of the new era here. Many guys became criminals, the jails are overloaded. Corruption, robbery, suicide, murders, catastrophic road accidents under alcohol or drugs is a daily routine. It's hard to believe, that the things are going the same way in the other countries. Some people say this is because we've lost God. Some say it's a first breath of democracy, which often is mixed with anarchy. Who knows how long will it last if it's a case. Parliament is tightening responsibility, it is increasing penalties and sentences, but meanwhile nothing helps. Hope other countries not suffer such headaches much.

Based on what my brothers and friends say the situation in the Czech Republic is about the same. The people that are on the top are the same that were there under commies. Corruption on high places, petty corruption on the bottom, stealing public money etc. all in open. It is true that standard of living is much higher than before but people are pissed off. It is hard to pick a party that is not corrupt or embroidered in the some kind of scandal. Communists got 17% of vote last election.
To get mugged or robed was unheard of in the old days. Everything has to be locked and protected today.
I just talked to a German guy. He said they face petty criminals from former Eastern bloc that break in the houses and steal small but valuable stuff such as jewelry. Home security is booming business there. He said it takes 30 minutes to break his windows with a sledge hammer. Doors can't be broken.
I guess we are lucky where we live. Our house can be robbed but the probability is so low that we don't worry about that

 

[RobertN]

It was my understanding that some of the best glass,at least in microscopy was Eastern Bloc.

 

[paulharvey]

Estonia is now a free country without any ordinary gun shot (thanks for God) just because of USA policy not to recognize its occupation. Romanian troops were "successfully" fighting in **** army (bad example) as its ally against USSR and reached Stalingrad. What if they'd gain Russian oil wells and heavy industry before American food and weaponry help supply will hit the USSR? Turkey, Greece and Armenia: all must depend on the commitment to NATO but not to each other; if at least one of them fail to fulfill the obligations, it should leave the organization. I'm sure both - Turkey and Greece - fulfill the requirements.
Nothing is ageless. Lithuania and Poland within the ages have been the enemies, than allies, than again enemies and now the strong allies again.
I think not the nations create instability or aggression. History shows that these are the tyrants such like Stalin or ****** or ******, who may show up in every country. And the world should take care so to be ready to withstand shoulder to shoulder the aggression together, as you said. But not to support those tyrants. Each local aggression should be treated as potentially global one.
If such understanding would be reached, the NATO will be strong, effective and reliable either diplomatically or at operations. I guess I know what you mean saying it looks more like UN.

I didnt mean to sound like i was saying anything about these nations, and maybe Nato needs new blood. What i ment is that the Usa, Uk, Canada (i leave France out of this because they have proven to be rather unreliable over the last 70 years) core go back over a hundred years of close alliance or friendly relationship, and have proven they will defend each other.

What i mean is that will say Portugal send ground troops to defend Estonia? Neather owe the other anything, and dont share the same regional goals, concerns, or incentives. The members are all committed to the idea of an alliance but not to each other.

I know that early in Iraq war the new Nato members and Ukraine where much more willing to send troops than France, Spain, or Canada. I guess its more of a general concern about what is called an "alliance" now beyond just Nato. Perhaps it will grow into a strong relationship over the years and someday people will talk about how the Czechs saved the Usa or how if it wasnt for the brave Slovenians there would be no Norway.

In the mean time i hope central and eastern europe thrive and grow, allies or not, Nato or not. I dont know that old europe will be the shining example of growth in the 21st century, and the central and east will fast close the gap with the "modern" nations. If they can over come the de population, corruption, and 85 years of cultural destruction left over from Austria Hungry on through communists.

 

[Redneck in training]

It was my understanding that some of the best glass,at least in microscopy was Eastern Bloc.

Thre were always three levels of products.
#1 Military. No expense spared.
#2 Export. Good quality for reasoable price or junk but very cheap.
#3 Expensive crap for domestic consumption.

In example military binoculars, rifle scopes and night vision were pretty basic but top quality.

 

[Redneck in training]

I didnt mean to sound like i was saying anything about these nations, and maybe Nato needs new blood. What i ment is that the Usa, Uk, Canada (i leave France out of this because they have proven to be rather unreliable over the last 70 years) core go back over a hundred years of close alliance or friendly relationship, and have proven they will defend each other.

What i mean is that will say Portugal send ground troops to defend Estonia? Neather owe the other anything, and dont share the same regional goals, concerns, or incentives. The members are all committed to the idea of an alliance but not to each other.

I know that early in Iraq war the new Nato members and Ukraine where much more willing to send troops than France, Spain, or Canada. I guess its more of a general concern about what is called an "alliance" now beyond just Nato. Perhaps it will grow into a strong relationship over the years and someday people will talk about how the Czechs saved the Usa or how if it wasnt for the brave Slovenians there would be no Norway.

In the mean time i hope central and eastern europe thrive and grow, allies or not, Nato or not. I dont know that old europe will be the shining example of growth in the 21st century, and the central and east will fast close the gap with the "modern" nations. If they can over come the de population, corruption, and 85 years of cultural destruction left over from Austria Hungry on through communists.

Eastern block countries rushed to join NATO to deter Russia from mdeling in their affairs.
I am looking at it this way:
I can't find single country that "lost" to USA (the key word is lost) and got poorer. There is not a single country that lost to USSR and got better.

 

[Renze]

BTW what is your story RENZE? Were you born in DDR?

No, i was born in Holland, i have no relatives in the East whatsoever. I just got a passion for Czech products such as Zetor and Tatra because we ran Zetor tractors for 25 years, they suffered from anti-east propaganda, but actually built tougher and more reliable products for the money than most Western brands that heavily advertised themself so. From there on, i got interested in Soviet engineering, with varying levels of sophistication and reliability, mostly depending on the intended use: as you also said, the quality of the product reflected the importance it had to the government...

From Zetor tractors to Czech engineering in general (Skoda builds mega lathes, the only lathes in the world that could lathe the megasized ball joints for a storm sluice that secures the main waterway into the Rotterdam seaport) into the political and societal factors that let an area that was once the silicon valley of the 30's devaluate in a just average production country..

 

[Redneck in training]

Well you said somewhere that your brother worked in East Germany collective farm. Or I misunderstood that.
I don't know if the ball gates in the Rotterdam waterway were the same as on several hydropower dams in Czech Republic. My father invented a gadget for repair of seats of those gates.
Never saw a dime from it even though by law he was entitled to substantial sum. When all repairs were done he found that the VP was the inventor. The secretary told him that she would testify that my father registered the invention in the registry. She was immediately fired and threatened. My father dropped the suit because it was impossible to win. Then his health went downhill from there and he died young at 52.

Yes, old Zetors could take a lot of abuse and beating. I hope new one are even better. Can you tell something about that. I will need bigger tractor in the future and I would buy one (for sentimental reason I suppose).

Skoda used to be one of the largest companies before the war. Commies split it to several independent companies. One made trucks, one made cars and one made steam turbines, generators and those sort of things.
After fall of communism
Truck production was acquired by TEDOM
Cars were acquired by VW
Steam turbines were acquired by Siemens
Generators were acquired by Brush from Holland
I met old guy years back who told me that he was working for and engineering company building large energy projects before the war. When they got Skoda equipment they never opened the boxes until they needed them. He said that it never happened that something was not right or missing.

Tatra is also company with long history of innovative and original design. Hans Ledwinka (designer of original VW) used to be a chief designer there. The "spine" frame used by Tatra trucks till today was his invention. Tatra trucks were (I think still are) popular in Siberia.
I have relatives in Bavaria. Cousin of my fater was an owner of large construction company. He said that Tatra trucks started to push Mack out of the market but then fell out of favor because Tatra was not able to provide good service.