What am I looking at?

[TYMinColton]

Can anyone tell me what I'm looking at? This is the front end of a Ford 881D that has a seized engine. I'm trying to bar her over. At first I was placing a large wrench over an odd shaped piece of steel bolted over the pulley. The inside of this piece clearly is the female receiver for a hand crank of some sort.



After pulling on this for several days I didn't like that it was doing some damage, so I decided to just remove it - hoping to find the legendary "pulley nut". Well there's a 15/16th nut for sure, but is this the pulley nut?



if I crank to the left it comes off - and with an easy tug so does the pulley it holds in place (gunked in with white silicone mind you). This exposes the front end of the crankshaft that has a 16 tooth or so splined end. I really don't like the feel when I try to bar her over by tightening this nut down on the pulley. What am I doing wrong here? Should I be baring over using the piece attached to the pulley?

 

[MikeD74T]

The piece in your hand is a flex coupling (universal joint) for a front mounted hydraulic pump. Live hydraulics for FEL. MikeD74T

 

[TYMinColton]

Interesting. So should I try to bar the engine over by placing a wrench over this flex coupling or focus on the nut that hidden beneath? Either way I'm probably going to pull the head this weekend, but for future consideration - what should I attach to in order to bar an engine?
Thanks,
Pete

 

[ToadHill]

Attach to the pulley nut. If you haven't pulled the plugs and soaked the cylinders with some penetrating oil, I'd do that before I pulled the head.

 

[TYMinColton]

Attach to the pulley nut. If you haven't pulled the plugs and soaked the cylinders with some penetrating oil, I'd do that before I pulled the head.

I'll give it a try. I pulled the injectors last week and have been soaking the cylinders with ATF, diesel, isoprop, mystery oil for a week. I replaced this mix with Aero Kroil last night. I'll get there eventually. . .

 

[Willl]

How long has it been sitting frozen up ?

 

[TYMinColton]

About 2 years, but here's her brief history:

She was up and running about 2 years ago, but had starter trouble. So, she ended up just sitting outside in the Oregon rain. In april I decided to get her going to sell and after buying a new starter motor tried to turn her over. She's been frozen ever since.

Dropped the oil pan and there is a little rust here and there on the crankshaft and along the edges of the pistons/cylinders, but all-in-all it's surprisingly clean. On the other hand there's lots of rust on the valves supporting the idea that water likely entered the engine through both the exhaust and air intake manifolds (indeed there was water in the air filter and some in the oil pan).

That's where we're at. Comments welcome. Thanks!
Pete

 

[kmdigital]

Yeh, you need to take the head off and make sure the valves aren't seriously stuck. Otherwise, you may break something by trying to force it.

I wouldn't turn on that nut. IMO, you can't get enough torque to break the pistons free w/o potentially breaking the bolt. Better, put the tractor in high gear, jack up the one rear wheel and rock the wheel. But take the head off first, and use a wire brush on a drill or something to remove as much rust as you can from the cylinders. If it rained in the exhaust, you probably have an exorbitant amount of rust on the cylinder walls, and you need to get as much out as you can above the rings, otherwise it may never turn over.

 

[TYMinColton]

Thanks KMdigital. Unfortunately with the SOS transmission, its locked into park when the engine off (real PITA). Because the don't have a clutch per se, I can't put her in high gear and rock a rear tire. I tried this at first only to find the tranny was locked in park . However, I can certainly remove the head and if needed, drive the pistons out of the cylinders. One way or another they're going to have to come out so I can evaluate just how badly pitted the cylinders/pistons are. . . .
Pete

 

[Willl]

A bore scope would come in handy right now.

 

[barneyrb]

I have heard that brake fluid will unstick a motor when nothing else will. FWIW...

 

[TYMinColton]

Another good suggestion among many. Thanks. Actually pulled the head this evening and have a little better idea of what I'm dealing with. I don't see much rust above the piston heads, but plenty of carbon build-up. The valves do show some rust, but this too can be cleaned up pretty easily. Still can't turn her over, but at least I should be able to disconnect the rods from the crankshaft and drive the pistons back up through the cylinders.

More info when I have it. . . .

 

[MikeD74T]

Pete, I was googling some other venues for stuck engine ideas and came across an automotive situation where the problem wasn't in the engine at all but in the transmission. What do you know about your transmission? MikeD74T

 

[jimmysisson]

Can you get a bar onto the ring gear on the flywheel? With the pan down, usually you can find some piece of the block casting close enough to get some serious leverage on the ring gear. That's safer than any crankshaft nut or bolt.
Still, what do you get by breaking it free, if you're going to pull the pistons anyway. You'll do less damage by removing the pistons one by one and cleaning up the bores and pistons/lands.
Jim

 

[mwb]

Pete, I was googling some other venues for stuck engine ideas and came across an automotive situation where the problem wasn't in the engine at all but in the transmission. What do you know about your transmission? MikeD74T

I agree! Seen a few situations of stuck engines caused by a jammed starter or transmission problem. I am betting the problem is not the engine! Is anything attached to the PTO that is not disengaged when you are cranking? Stupid suggestion but you never know

 

[actionaj]

A method that I have used many of times is breaking it lose with grease. I have done this on very large CATs down to a flat head Fords. You remove all the injectors or spark plugs take one injector or plug and weld a pipe nipple or zerk fitting to it. Then find a cylinder that the piston is allmost to the top and install the modified injector or plug. Then start pumping grease into the cylinder. A air grease gun is best but a hand pump will work to. Once the engine is broken free remove the injector or plug and spin it over with the starter. This will make a heck of a mess and the grease will hit the roof. I have done countless times and have never failed to break one loose. That is if you don't have a rod broke or something like that.
P.S. you will have to take the rocker arms loose to the cylinder that you are pumping up with grease.

 

[TYMinColton]

Wow! Flurry of responses. Let me give you a brief update guys.

1. PISTONS/CYLs. I ended up unbolting the rod arms from the crankshaft for pistons 1 and 4, and using an axe handle was able to drive them up through their respective cyls. 4 is freed-up, but I can't drive her all the way out. I can't feel a cylinder ridge, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. There is carbon buildup and possibly rust at the top of cyl 1 that makes driving this piston very tough. Might have to pull the block, drop the crankshaft and remove the pistons from underneath.
Question: I&T says something about the 172 diesels being dry bores without sleeves. Can anyone confirm this???

2. TRANSMISSION. I agree with the idea that the tranny could somehow be "stuck". I'm pretty sure when I shut her down 2 years ago she was in park (and by default the SOS goes into park), and now of course the rear diff is "disengaged" manually. But wait, here's the kicker: I drained the hydraulic fluid from center housing and found ~1/2 gal of water floating on top. Water, water, everywhere = rust, rust everywhere? . I had hoped to open an inspection port in front of band #2, which should allow me to inspect the backside of the ring gear, but I need a special screwdrive draglink socket that I don't have to loosen band #2. My screwdrivers just aren't big enough or torque enough .
Question: If the tranny was locked-up, is there some other way to confirm this without removing the engine block from the tranny? Simple first. . .

3. TRANNY/RING GEAR. I can't figure out how to get purchase on the ring gear. I obviously removed the starter and can see the teeth, but they're incredibly hard to get at. I also don't really have access from the rear end of the crankshaft. Last thing I need to do at this point is bend/break the shaft. So as stated above, I'm basically focused on pulling the pistons (or dropping them ).

I'll try to get some pictures of a few key spots in questions. I'm making progress on the piston/cyl front, but it's becoming clear that 2 yrs in the rain may have caused other problems other than the engine.

Keep your questions and comments coming - group project!
Pete

 

[TYMinColton]

A method that I have used many of times is breaking it lose with grease. I have done this on very large CATs down to a flat head Fords. You remove all the injectors or spark plugs take one injector or plug and weld a pipe nipple or zerk fitting to it. Then find a cylinder that the piston is allmost to the top and install the modified injector or plug. Then start pumping grease into the cylinder. A air grease gun is best but a hand pump will work to. Once the engine is broken free remove the injector or plug and spin it over with the starter. This will make a heck of a mess and the grease will hit the roof. I have done countless times and have never failed to break one loose. That is if you don't have a rod broke or something like that.
P.S. you will have to take the rocker arms loose to the cylinder that you are pumping up with grease.

Very different approach. I don't weld (yet), so might be tough. At this point incidentally the engine block is pretty bare - no cyl head, injector pump, power steering, etc. Pretty much a block with a crankshaft, camshaft, and 2/4 pistons still stuck in their cyls .

 

[john_bud]

Can anyone tell me what I'm looking at? This is the front end of a Ford 881D that has a seized engine. I'm trying to bar her over. At first I was placing a large wrench over an odd shaped piece of steel bolted over the pulley. The inside of this piece clearly is the female receiver for a hand crank of some sort.

View attachment 108370

After pulling on this for several days I didn't like that it was doing some damage, so I decided to just remove it - hoping to find the legendary "pulley nut". Well there's a 15/16th nut for sure, but is this the pulley nut?

View attachment 108369

if I crank to the left it comes off - and with an easy tug so does the pulley it holds in place (gunked in with white silicone mind you). This exposes the front end of the crankshaft that has a 16 tooth or so splined end. I really don't like the feel when I try to bar her over by tightening this nut down on the pulley. What am I doing wrong here? Should I be baring over using the piece attached to the pulley?

Put the gizmo back on the crank snout and bar it over with that. I use a cats paw pry bar that is pretty long and put a cheater on it. If you use the crank snout bolt, you will over tighten it and very very very likely break it off and that will make you cry!

The tranny is not your stuck issue. The SOS does not give any back pressure to cranking like a gear trans would. You are just spinning the pump and that isn't stopping it.

I would keep putting ATF & diesel or the kroil in each cylinder. If you have a helper (or rig up a hanging weight on the end of the cheater bar), put a hundred pounds or more on the end of the cheater and tap on the piston tops with the handle of a 3 lb hand maul. Us the motion to set a new head on a handle. I put a thick wad of rags on top of the pistons and rap each one. As you have 2 loose, you can just play the bongo drums with the other two~! Should work. Just don't go whacko while whacking it. Harder is not better. You just want some shock to start the motion so the hanging weight (or kid or wife or helper) will rotate the crank.

good luck,
jb

 

[TYMinColton]

Put the gizmo back on the crank snout and bar it over with that. I use a cats paw pry bar that is pretty long and put a cheater on it. If you use the crank snout bolt, you will over tighten it and very very very likely break it off and that will make you cry!

The tranny is not your stuck issue. The SOS does not give any back pressure to cranking like a gear trans would. You are just spinning the pump and that isn't stopping it.

I would keep putting ATF & diesel or the kroil in each cylinder. If you have a helper (or rig up a hanging weight on the end of the cheater bar), put a hundred pounds or more on the end of the cheater and tap on the piston tops with the handle of a 3 lb hand maul. Us the motion to set a new head on a handle. I put a thick wad of rags on top of the pistons and rap each one. As you have 2 loose, you can just play the bongo drums with the other two~! Should work. Just don't go whacko while whacking it. Harder is not better. You just want some shock to start the motion so the hanging weight (or kid or wife or helper) will rotate the crank.

good luck,
jb

Thanks JB. Kinda what I thought looking at the SOS design (in I&T). She's in park by default, which is also the "gear" she needs to be started in. Just wanted clarification. I'll probably pull the cover tonight and just have a looksee at the Cam assembly.

Incidentally, I did give up torquing on the pulley nut - just didn't feel right. I might try putting the front sleeve back on the pulley, but it was such a pain to get back off I don't think it'll go back on without removing the front axle .

As for freeing the cyls, I might try your idea of applying constant pressure through the crankshaft. I've tried something similar, but from below. I basically used a 3-ton bottle jack connected to an axe handle to apply continuous "vertical" upward pressure on the underside of a piston, and then from the top I hammered/tapped the top of the piston through a block of wood and shop rags. This seemed to really help get the piston #1 moving (but very slowly). It wan't necessary for #4. Dirtly Little secret: Darned near jacked-up the entire front-end getting #1 freed-up. These pistons are seriously stuck. I continue to add Kroil at regular intervals and will try to get to pistons #2 and #3 later this week.

Question: Assuming I get these pistons freed-up and "out of the way", there should be little no resistance on the crankshaft right?

Looking forward to a little bongo action (AKA McConaughey without the dope! )