OP
Portuguese Farmer
Silver Member
I'm all for the RE, I don't like being lied to, I don't think there will ever be a day where the world will be 100% RE.
What did you hear?
- Thread starter Portuguese Farmer
- Start date
- Views: 3477
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
I just glanced at the story when it happened and the only thing I remember about it was that two solar farms had failed.
OP
Portuguese Farmer
Silver Member
Never heard that one...two solar farms shut down 50+ million people, I'm sure some believe it.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
Made sense when I read it. What's left wasn't enough to meet the demand, and it overwhelmed the entire grid. I'm just guessing at that part since that's what happened here in Texas when our windmills froze, and the rest of the grid couldn't handle the demand without those windmills. Hopefully you have a better system there than we do here.
Rustyiron
Super Member
That's a laugh
People would be better off uninformed rather than misinformed.
This story does not line up with their agenda and will never mention the facts that they had nothing conventional "spinning" ready to make energy when the unicorns and fairies failed to carry the load.
OP
Portuguese Farmer
Silver Member
That's a laugh
People would be better off uninformed rather than misinformed.
This story does not line up with their agenda and will never mention the facts that they had nothing conventional "spinning" ready to make energy when the unicorns and fairies failed to carry the load.
EddieWalker
Epic Contributor
A good example of solar here in the US that wasted a lot of money, and accomplished nothing. Hopefully your solar plants are not massive money laundering schemes like they are here.
apnews.com
11 years after a celebrated opening, massive solar plant faces a bleak future in the Mojave Desert
What was once the largest solar power plant of its type in the world appears headed for closure just 11 years after opening.
apnews.com
KennyG
Elite Member
It sounds like grid instability, increased by large use of "renewables" that don't have spinning inertia. I can remember a US utility that, for various reasons, ended up with all it's generation on one end of it's grid. The converted a shut down generating plant into "spinning reserve" which amounted to a huge electric motor running a huge generator to stabilize the grid in case of loss of generation on the end of the grid.
Renewables can't do this. Solar converts DC to AC and any loss of generation is immediate. Similar for wind. Although the windmill has inertia, if I understand correctly, the generation is DC because of the variation in speed and has to be converted to AC which again loses the spinning inertia.
The impact of renewables on grid stability is well known, but unfortunately no one is doing much about it.
Renewables can't do this. Solar converts DC to AC and any loss of generation is immediate. Similar for wind. Although the windmill has inertia, if I understand correctly, the generation is DC because of the variation in speed and has to be converted to AC which again loses the spinning inertia.
The impact of renewables on grid stability is well known, but unfortunately no one is doing much about it.
ponytug
Super Member
I've been following the story since it occurred.
As some of us (e.g. Texans) know first hand, stabilizing an isolated or relatively isolated grid can be a challenge. Anybody who has overloaded a generator knows this first hand.
In terms of sequence, it seems as if a grid instability occurred, and in fact had been occurring for at least a week prior to the event, so this was not an "unexpected" event as portrayed in a number of articles. The Spanish grid operators had what appears to have been many warnings that their grid was in unstable territory. Whether they did anything is TBD, but it clearly wasn't enough.
The final analysis isn't done by any means, but if you want a fairly good first pass, there is this;
theconversation.com
Here is an excerpt;
A few minutes before the outage, fluctuations were observed in the grid, and there was a spike in wind power generation, which had been very low until then. France suddenly stopped importing electricity from Spain, perhaps because it detected a problem in the peninsular grid, and this deepened the imbalance between supply and demand.
At that point, the few operating nuclear power plants received an overload signal. In accordance with protocol, control rods were inserted and they were automatically shut down.
But what was most surprising was the behaviour of solar photovoltaics, which dropped sharply from generating 18,000 MW to just 8,000 MW in just a few seconds. Since the sun had not vanished, it must have been an automated command that switched off thousands of solar facilities.
REE sources indicate that the problem may have been triggered by the disconnection of some solar plants in southwest Spain, but the grid would normally be able to balance this out through regulation – the mechanism for balancing supply and demand. This was being done mainly with hydropower, as normal, but there came a point when this source had exhausted its adjustment capacity.
Current evidence therefore points to a problem in the synchronisation of the grid. All sources feeding power into the grid must be synchronised at the same frequency, 50 Hertz. To facilitate this synchronisation, stable base-load power is required, which is normally provided by nuclear and other large gas and hydroelectric facilities. These sources act as a natural buffer against disturbances, helping to keep the frequency stable in the face of sudden changes in generation or demand."
theconversation.com
More here;
I think it is a little early to assign blame, but the blackout is a great reminder to all of us to prepare for emergencies, and for those who plan such things, improve grid resilience and reliability with better synchronization and grid-ties.Like California, Spain and Portugal have many of the same challenges in energy, earthquakes, and fires. I hope that one lesson is better personal and neighborhood preparedness.
All the best,
Peter
As some of us (e.g. Texans) know first hand, stabilizing an isolated or relatively isolated grid can be a challenge. Anybody who has overloaded a generator knows this first hand.
In terms of sequence, it seems as if a grid instability occurred, and in fact had been occurring for at least a week prior to the event, so this was not an "unexpected" event as portrayed in a number of articles. The Spanish grid operators had what appears to have been many warnings that their grid was in unstable territory. Whether they did anything is TBD, but it clearly wasn't enough.
The final analysis isn't done by any means, but if you want a fairly good first pass, there is this;
Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?
By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.
theconversation.com
Here is an excerpt;
"What went wrong?
When analysing the available data available from REE between 12:30 and 12:35, we can observe several unusual events.A few minutes before the outage, fluctuations were observed in the grid, and there was a spike in wind power generation, which had been very low until then. France suddenly stopped importing electricity from Spain, perhaps because it detected a problem in the peninsular grid, and this deepened the imbalance between supply and demand.
At that point, the few operating nuclear power plants received an overload signal. In accordance with protocol, control rods were inserted and they were automatically shut down.
But what was most surprising was the behaviour of solar photovoltaics, which dropped sharply from generating 18,000 MW to just 8,000 MW in just a few seconds. Since the sun had not vanished, it must have been an automated command that switched off thousands of solar facilities.
REE sources indicate that the problem may have been triggered by the disconnection of some solar plants in southwest Spain, but the grid would normally be able to balance this out through regulation – the mechanism for balancing supply and demand. This was being done mainly with hydropower, as normal, but there came a point when this source had exhausted its adjustment capacity.
Current evidence therefore points to a problem in the synchronisation of the grid. All sources feeding power into the grid must be synchronised at the same frequency, 50 Hertz. To facilitate this synchronisation, stable base-load power is required, which is normally provided by nuclear and other large gas and hydroelectric facilities. These sources act as a natural buffer against disturbances, helping to keep the frequency stable in the face of sudden changes in generation or demand."
Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?
By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.
theconversation.com
More here;
I think it is a little early to assign blame, but the blackout is a great reminder to all of us to prepare for emergencies, and for those who plan such things, improve grid resilience and reliability with better synchronization and grid-ties.Like California, Spain and Portugal have many of the same challenges in energy, earthquakes, and fires. I hope that one lesson is better personal and neighborhood preparedness.
All the best,
Peter
Last edited:
OP
Portuguese Farmer
Silver Member
They will point the finger the other direction to avoid liability, we logged 12.5 hours on the generatorI've been following the story since it occurred.
As some of us (e.g. Texans) know first hand, stabilizing an isolated or relatively isolated grid can be a challenge.Anybody who has overloaded a generator knows this first hand.
In terms of sequence, it seems as if a grid instability occurred, and in fact had been occurring for at least a week prior to the event, so this was not an "unexpected" event as portrayed in a number of articles. The Spanish grid operators had what appears to have been many warning that their grid was in unstable territory. Whether they did anything is TBD, but it clearly wasn't enough.
The final analysis isn't done by any means, but if you want a fairly good first pass, there is this;
Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?
By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.
Here is an excerpt;
"What went wrong?
When analysing the available data available from REE between 12:30 and 12:35, we can observe several unusual events.
A few minutes before the outage, fluctuations were observed in the grid, and there was a spike in wind power generation, which had been very low until then. France suddenly stopped importing electricity from Spain, perhaps because it detected a problem in the peninsular grid, and this deepened the imbalance between supply and demand.
At that point, the few operating nuclear power plants received an overload signal. In accordance with protocol, control rods were inserted and they were automatically shut down.
But what was most surprising was the behaviour of solar photovoltaics, which dropped sharply from generating 18,000 MW to just 8,000 MW in just a few seconds. Since the sun had not vanished, it must have been an automated command that switched off thousands of solar facilities.
REE sources indicate that the problem may have been triggered by the disconnection of some solar plants in southwest Spain, but the grid would normally be able to balance this out through regulation – the mechanism for balancing supply and demand. This was being done mainly with hydropower, as normal, but there came a point when this source had exhausted its adjustment capacity.
Current evidence therefore points to a problem in the synchronisation of the grid. All sources feeding power into the grid must be synchronised at the same frequency, 50 Hertz. To facilitate this synchronisation, stable base-load power is required, which is normally provided by nuclear and other large gas and hydroelectric facilities. These sources act as a natural buffer against disturbances, helping to keep the frequency stable in the face of sudden changes in generation or demand."
Spain-Portugal blackouts: what actually happened, and what can Iberia and Europe learn from it?
By analysing minute-by minute data, we can pinpoint the moment where it all went wrong for Spain’s power grid.
More here;
I think it is a little early to assign blame, but the blackout is a great reminder to all of us to prepare for emergencies, and for those who plan such things, improve grid resilience and reliability with better synchronization and grid-ties.Like California, Spain and Portugal have many of the same challenges in energy, earthquakes, and fires. I hope that one lesson is better personal and neighborhood preparedness.
All the best,
Peter
