Whats wrong with tier 4

[Btown]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS here is the chart <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/owning-operating/421671-whats-wrong-tier-4-a-new-kubota-t4f-engine-models"/>

Wow that is surprising since Kubota states clearly on their website that their DOC/DPF engines are many times cleaner than just the DOC. Bragging one minute how green they are and flip flopping. Oh well.

 

[jcummins]

What is that going to do to the value of Kubota's with DPFs, a few years down the road?

 

[McREBEL]

What is that going to do to the value of Kubota's with DPFs, a few years down the road?

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

 

[Sysop]

They won't try to tell us we can resell the can later to make up the difference? It's on a BigK, it can't be worthless... :stirthepot:

 

[Btown]

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

They can be removed, but you have to reprogram the computer since sensors will be missing.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

I predicted earlier in this thread that the resell value will not be so good, but it was pointed out to me that someone could just remove the DPF if they didn't like it. If the DPF can be removed and not negatively effect the engine/electronics then maybe the value wont be effected too much. I still wouldn't want one.

That may very well depend on how reliable the engines are without the DPF, and are running the DOC and meeting teir iv. Have not looked into how Kubota is getting there. If we look at how Mahindra got there as an example, there system is pretty integral to the tractor and you are not taking it off. Where the DPF and SCR/DEF is well added on, so they can reflash the ECM back to a time where it doesn't have that stuff. That is at least what they are doing on the over the road trucks. They then run better and get better fuel miliage.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

The original post was what is wrong with tier IV? I have said, 渡othing is wrong with the Tier IV emissions regulations, getting there with DPF and SCR/DEF is bad. Up until now I have been saying that you don't want DPF and SCR/DEF because it is riddle with issues. My next premise is "emission control components that are added to meet tier IV emissions that increase fuel usage are bad and do not really lower there over all emissions foot print. What I am saying is even when your, VW Diesel Passat, with DPF, is working correctly, because the DPF is causing an increase in fuel usage that is negating the emissions that the DPF is reducing. (I am picking the Passat because it was mentioned above and there is information available) Also, this concludes that we buy the soot being burned off has been turned into magical pixy dust and the scientist are always going to be right and that this isn't going to cause say cancer anytime soon. When fuel is refined it produces emissions. This is the reason for not approving the keystone XL pipe line, the oil from the tar sands is dirty and will therefore produce more emissions in the refining process. So, therefore the refining process must produce harmful emissions. So, if we use less fuel we produce less emissions. When the DPF delete kit is installed on the Passat there is roughly a 10% decrease. It's a stretch, but I do believe increase in fuel useage should be considered when, we say emissions are being reduced.

 

[Btown]

The original post was what is wrong with tier IV? I have said, 渡othing is wrong with the Tier IV emissions regulations, getting there with DPF and SCR/DEF is bad. Up until now I have been saying that you don't want DPF and SCR/DEF because it is riddle with issues. My next premise is "emission control components that are added to meet tier IV emissions that increase fuel usage are bad and do not really lower there over all emissions foot print. What I am saying is even when your, VW Diesel Passat, with DPF, is working correctly, because the DPF is causing an increase in fuel usage that is negating the emissions that the DPF is reducing. (I am picking the Passat because it was mentioned above and there is information available) Also, this concludes that we buy the soot being burned off has been turned into magical pixy dust and the scientist are always going to be right and that this isn't going to cause say cancer anytime soon. When fuel is refined it produces emissions. This is the reason for not approving the keystone XL pipe line, the oil from the tar sands is dirty and will therefore produce more emissions in the refining process. So, therefore the refining process must produce harmful emissions. So, if we use less fuel we produce less emissions. When the DPF delete kit is installed on the Passat there is roughly a 10% decrease. It's a stretch, but I do believe increase in fuel useage should be considered when, we say emissions are being reduced.

I have heard from a few who have done the ILLEGAL DPF delete on the Passat and none have stated 10% increase. You might see that on a 6.7L V8 diesel but not on a 2.0L I4.

 

[houstonscott]

I own a BMW 335d, and it's a spectacular car. Had a DF temp sensor in the tank go bad, BMW replaced it free even though out side warranty. Did not seem to effect car other than warning icon on dash until replaced. No doubt that high pressure direct injection diesels are far superior to indirect diesels. More power, better starts, use less fuel, they are quite, and run better. All good things. I'd search for tractor models the had the direct injection but without the EGR, or particulate filters. That way you get all the good and none of the bad. With low sulfur fuels most of the gripes have gone away. HS

 

[Industrial Toys]

Aside from the added and unwanted complexity, I suspect that the life cycle cost of these machines will be much higher.

Funny how few people look at true cost as opposed to purchase price or in these days, monthly payments.

Kind of like a customer of mine with a high efficiency gas furnace. He spent maybe six thousand dollars on it in repairs lately. DC motors, boards, you name it! That thing sure is efficient on fuel usage but could give a **** about how much of his money it burns!

Maybe some people on here don't know that a "real" diesel doesn't even need power. If you can get it started, with an electric starter, or running it down hill, or even a crank, it will run without power. And this was one of the beautiful things about a diesel.

Now, fast forward to 2015. There could easily be a hundred electrical connections that have to be perfect for your "diesel" to run. That and possibly a few hundred thousand (maybe more?) transistor semiconductor junctions that have to be working properly (as well as computer code) for your tractor to run. You had better hope, that the manufacturer spend the required R&D time and money as well as not having cheaped out, and spent the money to make sure all of that stuff was of the highest quality and can withstand the widely varying extremes to which a tractor can be subjected to.

And if not, THAT is what can be WRONG with Tier 4! In my opinion.