Whats wrong with tier 4

[dave1949]

Just for the sake of clarity and because I don't have a clear picture of the relative sizes of these particulates being discussed:

Particulates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Subtypes of atmospheric particle matter include suspended particulate matter (SPM), respirable suspended particle (RSP; particles with diameter of 10 micrometres or less), fine particles (diameter of 2.5 micrometres or less), ultrafine particles, and soot.

2.5 micrometers (microns) = 9.84251969 × 10-5 inches (.0000984251969")


Soot is a powder-like form of amorphous carbon[citation needed]. The gas-phase soots contain polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). The PAHs in soot are known mutagens and are classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). Soot can be classified as soot nanoparticles. Soot forms during incomplete combustion from precursor molecules such as acetylene. It consists of agglomerated nanoparticles with diameters between 5 to 30 nm. The soot particles can be mixed with metal oxides and with minerals and can be coated with sulfuric acid.

5 nm (nanometers) = 1.96850394 × 10-7 inches (.000000196850394")
30 nm (nanometers) = 1.18110236 × 10-6 inches (.00000118110236")

Nanoparticle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nanoparticles are particles between 1 and 100 nanometers in size. In nanotechnology, a particle is defined as a small object that behaves as a whole unit with respect to its transport and properties. Particles are further classified according to diameter. Ultrafine particles are the same as nanoparticles and between 1 and 100 nanometers in size. Coarse particles cover a range between 2,500 and 10,000 nanometers. Fine particles are sized between 100 and 2,500 nanometers.

 

[KevT]

? is what I thought. That tractor should be selling for a minimum of 20k.

Not quite, they gave me $5000 for the JD, but I also traded a ford P/U that they gave me $4000 on for the JD. So I figured that was a wash

 

[KevT]

And the Kubota has a hard canopy, the JD did not

 

[KevT]

Just for the sake of clarity and because I don't have a clear picture of the relative sizes of these particulates being discussed:

Particulates - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Subtypes of atmospheric particle matter include suspended particulate matter (SPM), respirable suspended particle (RSP; particles with diameter of 10 micrometres or less), fine particles (diameter of 2.5 micrometres or less), ultrafine particles, and soot.

2.5 micrometers (microns) = 9.84251969 × 10-5 inches (.0000984251969")


Soot is a powder-like form of amorphous carbon[citation needed]. The gas-phase soots contain polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). The PAHs in soot are known mutagens and are classified as a "known human carcinogen" by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). Soot can be classified as soot nanoparticles. Soot forms during incomplete combustion from precursor molecules such as acetylene. It consists of agglomerated nanoparticles with diameters between 5 to 30 nm. The soot particles can be mixed with metal oxides and with minerals and can be coated with sulfuric acid.

5 nm (nanometers) = 1.96850394 × 10-7 inches (.000000196850394")
30 nm (nanometers) = 1.18110236 × 10-6 inches (.00000118110236")

Nanoparticle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nanoparticles are particles between 1 and 100 nanometers in size. In nanotechnology, a particle is defined as a small object that behaves as a whole unit with respect to its transport and properties. Particles are further classified according to diameter. Ultrafine particles are the same as nanoparticles and between 1 and 100 nanometers in size. Coarse particles cover a range between 2,500 and 10,000 nanometers. Fine particles are sized between 100 and 2,500 nanometers.

HUH????

 

[dave1949]

HUH????

The sizes are given in scientific notation. "9.84251969 × 10-5 inches" would be spoken as 9.84.... times 10 to the minus 5 inches.

I converted that to simple inches: .0000984251969" because I don't think in scientific notation.

 

[oldpilgrim]

WOW you must be rich! :shocked:

Quoting the link:
"direct result of a $30 million dollar investment "

Nothing about $30M says cheap to me!

For an international company the size of Mahindra and it's parent company, and for companies the size of Kubota and Deere, an investment that size, though not insignificant, is not an overwhelming budget item...especially if it might have a good chance of increasing their market share.

If Mahindra could do it, the others could. If the others can't or don't want to, they could license it from Mahindra. Mahindra gains from the fees, and the others keep their market share.

Maybe Mahindra won't license it, so as to gain an edge. I can see why they might not want to.

 

[DavesTractor]

For an international company the size of Mahindra and it's parent company, and for companies the size of Kubota and Deere, an investment that size, though not insignificant, is not an overwhelming budget item...especially if it might have a good chance of increasing their market share.

If Mahindra could do it, the others could. If the others can't or don't want to, they could license it from Mahindra. Mahindra gains from the fees, and the others keep their market share.

Maybe Mahindra won't license it, so as to gain an edge. I can see why they might not want to.

$30M isn't a ton of money for a company that produces and sells over 200,000 tractors a year. If you want to spread the Tier IV cost across all units, that is $150/tractor. Granted, most of those units are spread around the world and most are not Tier IV, but it does go to show that there is a huge advantage to volume.

I'm a Mahindra dealer and a Mahindra fan, but I am still a little perplexed as to why other engine builders did not go the same route. It would be hard to find a more respected diesel engine than Kubota or Yanmar, yet I think they are going the DPF route. I can't think that we thought of something or some way to skin the cat that others did not think about. But here we are, no DPF, and we are happy with that. If there is a downside to the mCRD approach, I haven't found it yet.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Dont forget all the trucks and other diesel products Mahindra makes.

They should make out like bandits with their new technology.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Been looking at this a little more. DPF is going away and they are getting it figured out. The Mahindra mCRD is using a Bosch common rail fuel system which is giving them a better control of the combustion process. For what ever reason they where able to get the design into there tractor faster? Looks like all the rest had it figured out but could not get the advances in technology into production. Here is a bunch of links,
Mahindra mCRD Diesel Technology

Cummins Engines

https://www.dieselnet.com/news/2014/07kubota.php

https://www.deere.com/en_US/corpora...3/engines_drivetrain/2013apr17_power_ft4.page

Theoretically if they are getting more complete combustion in the combustion chamber they should be getting more power for fueled burned, better fuel economy, lower emissions. At first glance not seeing a down side. So, looks like they are going to get there without DPF, just a question of when. Wow, i am glad i don't need a new tractor. Lot to chew on.

Here is my :2cents: do what you need to do to stay away from DPF. If you have DPF it is not the end of the world, it works just gets there differently. You needed a tractor that's all they had what is one to do. Money talks and BS walks, so if the price was right on a tractor with DPF compared to a new one without, i'd do it. But I sure would understand what I was getting into.

 

[Sysop]

Mahindra's efforts were not Mahindra's alone. I'd imagine the $30M was their share of the investment, but I'd imaging the overall investment in designing everything was actually much higher. Mahindra partnered with both Bosch and Perkins (possibly others) in designing the new no-DPF system (which they have had a very long and productive collaborative relationship with both companies for many years). I figure Perkins and Bosch both tossed dollars in the kitty to get it done also.

My older 4035 also has an engine that was a collaborative effort between Mahindra and Perkins and is outfitted with Bosch injection and emissions. One of the sillier reasons I like my Mahindra is that signature Perkins-type sound.