where are the coyotes?

[cp1969]

Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.

Just as you are incredulous that your experience differs wildly from others, so are they(we?) of yours. All I can offer is what I have seen, which is in stark contrast with the picture you paint of coyotes. What can we make of this? Provided everyone is telling the truth, then the only conclusion I can come to is that the behavior of coyotes is not universal throughout their territory. As I said in an earlier post, the only time I see them in a 'pack' is in mating season. The rest of the year they are, for all practical purposes, solitary animals, notwithstanding the occasional female with young.

I am only sharing my personal experience, not that of others. I have had many people from the same area in which I live tell me that coyotes are voracious predators of livestock. I have not found that to be true, and that conclusion came from spending time in the country, not reading it from books or hearing it from someone who's simply repeating what he heard from someone else.

I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods.

 

[EdKing]

<font color=blue>I have not found that to be true, and that conclusion came from</font color=blue><font color=red> spending time in the country</font color=red>

Spending time in the country, and actually living in the country are 2 completly different things. Being out in the field at 2:00 am helping with a difficult birth, and seeing the eyes glowing back at you as they circle around tells a completly different story. Things may be a lot different in Kansas, but here in rural SouthWest Pa, the coyotes are taking pets and livestock. As long as they continue to do this, I will continue to hunt and kill as many of them as I can.

 

[RanchMan]

cp1969-

<font color=blue>I'm not saying your experience isn't true--all I'm saying is that it is definitely not the way I have found coyotes to behave in my neck of the woods. </font color=blue>

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Er, uh, no - that's not what started the issue. What started the issue is that a couple of individuals either implied someone was a liar or stated it outright.

Now, in the interest of disclosure, I've stated someone was a liar too on TBN. "Called it as I saw it," you could say. 'Course the incident I’m referring to was on a very heated thread where I believed (and still do) that the original poster's motivations were dishonorable and they were just trying to "pick a fight."

So, you could say I don't necessarily see calling someone's bluff as a bad thing, but, that being said, the circumstances of my "calling out" were entirely different from this thread. I've seen nothing "dishonorable" or mean-spirited from those who claim that some coyotes can and do attack livestock.

<font color=blue>Don't forget that many people here have spent a considerable amount of time outdoors and are relaying their actual experiences.</font color=blue>

Just 'cause your eyes haven't witnessed it doesn't mean it never happens "in your neck of the woods." Although an eyewitness certainly helps, it is not required to convict in the courts, so why is it here? Quite frankly I find those who absolutely refuse to believe that a coyote could kill anything like a deer/calf/etc. the ones coming across poorly, not the folks who have witnessed it with their own eyes.

There seems to be 2 sides in play, (1) Coyotes don't attack/eat "big game" and (2) Coyotes can/do attack/eat "big game". Just because someone has spent a lot of time "outside" and they fall in to “group 1" doesn't negate the testimony of those in “group 2.”

If it were a murder trial, you could pull in 1000 people who would say "I didn't see him kill the guy. Yea, I wasn't there at the time in question, I was in a different area of town and I've seen the suspect not kill other people, so I don't think he is the type. No, he could never do it."

Would 1000 people making a statement like the one above negate, say, the other 5 witnesses who were there @ the "right time" and did see it? Nope. (And we have "eyewitness testimony" here on this thread, not just "here say.") I think that the "non believers" on this thread are failing to follow the "reasonable doubt" guideline - I just hope they don't do this when it comes to human perps and trials. /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif

I understand the whole “seeing is believing.” thing, but seeing is not required. The way I look at it, if someone refuses to believe a coyote is capable and does take “large game,” (dependent on the circumstances), and they want to stay “logically sound”, they must state that every “eyewitness” on this thread who saw such an attack is either (a) unable to distinguish the difference between a coyote & other animals (such as a dog) OR (b) they are a liar. Simple as that.

For the record, I'll state that based on testimony presented here, discussions with my state's wildlife biologist, reading/books, and personal experience, I do indeed believe Cowboydoc & EdKing. Do I think every coyote is a "bloodthirsty killer" - uh, no. I believe that their actions are based on a lot of factors, the biggest of which is ease of obtaining food. I suspect, like most animals, coyotes are lazy and want the easiest & "most hearty" meal available. Newborn, sick, weak, or "trapped" livestock seem to be pretty easy targets to me.

 

[Ozarker]

Wow. Just when the conversation go to what wild animals will or will not attack, along comes this news story from our northern neighbor.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://news1.iwon.com/odd/article/id/257037|oddlyenough|08-03-2002::09:01|reuters.html>Man Recovers After Battling, Killing Cougar</A>

Apparently Cougars have no problem attacking whatever they want.

 

[TresCrows]

Now, exactly why do you shoot dogs that chase deer? I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property and woe unto he who shoots at them, it would likely be their last shot.
You guys are not the only people who "grew up or live in the country". I remain highly skeptical of the behavoirs described but I do believe coyotes may well take a sickly or lost calf or lamb. So many of these things just do not pan out when investigated but of course many things are possible. As to the neighbor, he may well believe with all his heart what he says and be as honest as can be but people see what they want to see, like I said, I doubt coyotes have a noticeable impact on the bottom line. Just because someone finds some coyotes feeding off a dead lamb does not mean they killed it.
I suspect the coyotes wish something would cut down the human population just a bit also, maybe in some feeble way they see one less "Burger" on hooves as one less human at McDonalds.
Next we will be blaming coyotes for crop circles and cattle mutilations and global warming.
I don't believe in killing things for the fun of it, for sport hunting yes if the critter is for food, for pelts/trophies maybe under some conditions, for protection of course, for an already dead lamb that coyotes are feeding off of --no. I have seen people just shoot animals for no reason and leave them suffering, I don't think God is going to be a happy camper when they come knocking on his door. J

 

[TresCrows]

I will be frank then, do the coyotes taking the sickly calves and breached births etc have a significant impact on the bottom line of a cattle ranch? What would be a significant impact? or--is this --hey guys--let's get some guns and go shoot at stuff kind of thing? I have seen exactly this as I know human nature better apparently than I do a coyotes. If you are protecting your lively hood and these coyotes are endangering it and other reasonable means have been taken then I believe your honest statement and your honest right to protect your property--lock and load.
What is the global impact of cattle ranching anyway, the methane produced as a greenhouse gas, the acerage required for their habitat and feeding etc, cattle ranching is environmentaly expensive. Is a Quarter Pounder more important than having a few wild things left in our lives to wonder over and yes--even spin--urban legends about. When the last coyote is hunted down and killed will we be better for it, the crows say no. J

 

[Scott_in_WVA]

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

<font color=blue>Now, exactly why do you shoot dogs that chase deer? I want my dogs to chase the ruinous deer of my property

<hr></blockquote>

</font color=blue>
Lets not get confused the difference between a dog running a deer out of the back yard versus a dog or dogs chasing a deer for so long and so far the deer cannot run anymore.I have seen a deer that was so tired from being run by dogs that it wobbled on its tired legs/collapsed into a field and you walk right up to it and touch it.Darn right I would dust a dog for that.....

 

[RanchMan]

I find your attitude toward those who are providers of food so that you and your family doesn't have to "toil in the fields" both malicious and insolent.

Farmers & ranchers take a HUGE risk to continue in their livelihood for very little profit. Let's be honest - it's hard, dirty, and thin margin work. By your statement on "significant impact", it is obvious you have no idea of what goes in to ranching/farming and how little money there is in it. I believe you've seen too many Westerns about "cattle barons."

As far as the environment, /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif well, that's a WHOLE other topic. Suffice to say, I seriously doubt coyotes are on the verge of extinction as you imply. I find it ironic you want to save the "wild" coyote from all those evil/blood thirsty people, while at the same time you can't stand those "wild" deer by saying, <font color=blue>"I really wish some of them coyotes would come eat some of these deer I have eating my trees, eating up the forests, wrecking havoc upon all that is green. "</font color=blue> Sounds like you're disheartened about the deer eating your flowers & shrubbery 'round the house (aggravating, but hardly a "livelihood" issue.) Hmmm, /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif, can we say "double standard?"

I also assume based on your dissatisfaction with the cattle industry, you must be a vegetarian. (e.g. cattle = environmental destruction, environmental destruction = evil/bad, ergo cattle = evil/bad) Too bad that farmers have all those nasty fields where they grow crops!!! Think of ALL THAT LAND they SCREWED UP!!! They must be bad/evil folks too (all those chemicals they use - I mean, how "significant the impact" can a few grasshoppers be!!!)

No sir, I think you are way off base. Of course, if you grow your own food (Plants, and chemical free at that) and you see no problem with price of a "Big Mac" going to $18 due to lack of available bovine, then I guess there is no hypocrisy in your statements.

 

[Von]

I have been reading this whole thread and figured it was time to chime in. I am by no way an expert on coyotes, but i do know more about them than most. I hold a BS degree in Biology with a minor in enviromental science. I have studied coyotes in school and have been hunting them for over 20 yrs. and guiding hunts for over 5 yrs. First there is a big difference between western and eastern coyotes. Both in size (eastern are much larger) and in life style. While the western coyote is more solitary and a lone hunter, its not unusual to call 2-4 in at once, but thats just because they are hungry. But back here in the east I have called in up to 7 at once or the main hunting pack. I have seen coyotes pull calfs out of birthing mothers! talk about giving a helping hand. And I have seen them work together to seperate the fawns from the doe. And you will not thin them out by shooting them. They will have larger litters in the next spring to make up for any losses to the pack. Near my home I have been shooting them for 12 years and can't seem to put a dent in the #'s. We have hardly any rabbits or pheasents anymore, mostly from the coyotes and fox. If anyone has any questions I would be glad to try to help answer them. And if you don't think they bring down deer, check out this photo attached!

 

[cp1969]

Ed King said, "....Spending time in the country, and actually living in the country are 2 completly different things..."

This is what I get for a poor choice of words. My 'time spent in the country' was LIVING in the country, RAISING and TAKING CARE Of both my own and other people's livestock, and HUNTING and TRAPPING coyotes.

As I said, about the only conclusion that will be reached in this discussion is that coyotes' behavior apparently varies considerably with geographic location.