where are the coyotes?

EdKing · Aug 4, 2002

Richard, It makes me wonder where the food will come from and how much we will have to pay for it if all the family owned/operated ranchers and farmers are driven out of business. What most of these people don't understand, is a ready and aboundant supply of food is what allows civilization to exist and expand. I guess we could all go back to being hunter/gatherers and killing each other for the meager resources available.

EdKing · Aug 4, 2002

I'd slither out too if I couldn't address anyone's points with anything other than made-up knowledge and insults. 

Bravo, Ranchman, I couldn't have said it better.

Egon · Aug 4, 2002

Beenthere:

I too have enjoyed this thread as it has expanded my knowledge base. Maybe a little hard on the ego when you realize your ideas were not complete but bringing them up to date compensates.
Egon

TresCrows · Aug 4, 2002

OK, Purple guy and cowboy, again, neither of you have done anything but shout and arm wave and bully. I don't agree with you.I think you should leave the wild things wild until there is real impact on your buisness which you have not shown that there is.
Your inability to maintain a level head indicates your true nature--hey boy's, lets get some guns and go shoot at stuff--yeeha.
J

cowboydoc · Aug 4, 2002

It does impact Tres Crow. Why do you think that the Fish and Game will allow a wolf to be killed after they have spent so much to reintroduce them if they are caught killing a calf? The reason is because one wolf will decimate a calf population. It is real and farmers try very hard to maintain a balance with nature and with getting food to your table.

Like Ranchman said it's not just farmers and ranchers but anyone that goes out beyond a 9-5, 4 weeks of vacation, holidays off, retirement, etc. etc. I have respect for anyone that goes above the call. Teachers, fireman, policeman, etc.

I still fail to see why you have no respect or consideration when you have been told not only by those of us that do or have done this for a living but by Von himself. A hunter, biologist, and NOT a rancher or farmer. You had a completely unbiased person tell you that it is a real threat and happens. He told you that he himself saw a breech calf being taken. He gave you a picture of a deer being taken by a coyote.

Just something to think about tres crow. You work for another person or company. How about this. The next time that you get your paycheck how would you feel if there was $600- $1000 taken out of it. Let's say that the company had a bad month and all of the empolyees have to pay for it. Well that's what happens when you say those calves don't matter that get taken. That comes right off of the ranchers bottom line each time a calf is taken. Double that if a good cow is taken.

You have no idea what you are talking about and yet you keep making accusations and assumptions about what it is really like. It just amazes me that people can be so closed minded and disrespectful. I guess we shouldn't wonder about why all the crimes in this world have happened and why kids have no respect for themselves or anything else. I know you'll just come back with some snide remarks but at least someone that's really interested about the way things are may get some good out of this thread.

cp1969 · Aug 4, 2002

I don't know how I could construe your carefully chosen words any other way. When you say "just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen" is exactly that--it is asking me to take someone else's word that an event occurred.

When I say I tried to prove the coyote's guilt, this is what I mean: I heard for years during my youth from various people who believed it to be true, that coyotes were predators of livestock. I had no reason to believe otherwise but when I became old enough to hunt and trap, I never saw this happen, nor did I see evidence that it did (coyote tracks around a carcass doesn't prove the coyote did the killing, nor does it prove it didn't). When I continued to hear this, I would probe a little deeper, as to whether they'd seen it personally. Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars (e.g., from the guy who claimed to have served in Vietnam, but was never in the Army). As much time as I've spent around livestock and hunting, I have to believe that for it be common knowledge among people who claim it to be true, that I would have at least had an opportunity to see it for myself. It has yet to happen. In fact, many times I have seen coyotes walk through a pasture filled with cows and calves and they won't even stop grazing, let alone make an attempt to get away from what is supposedly their predator. The coyotes seem oblivious to the cattle as well. I don't know what other conclusion I could reach--I've spent as much time as most, and way more than some people around livestock and coyotes and I've seen them in contact with each other and have never seen any interaction at all. And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock? Sorry--ain't gonna happen. I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.

Now, if Mr. Coyote was acutally on trial, as a juror I would probably have to put my personal experience aside and vote with the preponderance of witness testimony, if that was all that was presented, in spite of the fact that it conflicts with my own experience. But I would probably be more comfortable as a witness for the defense.

Everyone needs to try not to get so steamed up over this. If you believe that your neighborhood coyotes are a threat to your livestock herds, fine with me, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that my herd is in danger. Maybe you ought to consider relocating to where the coyotes don't seem to prefer that table fare? I don't use the smiley faces, but if I did, I would but a wink in right here.

woodyed · Aug 4, 2002

I agree with you about not pushing any panic button on CWD. I live in Central New York State and there hasn't been to my knowledge, any animal domestic or wild, that has been diagnosed with CWD. Even if there had been, I don't think I would become very concerned, and I eat plenty of venison in a year's time. On the matter of coyotes, where I live there is an has been an explosion in the deer, turkey, rabbit, as well as the coyote populations in the last 7 or 8 years. They all co-exist and continue to increase in numbers even though the coyote is the largest predator. So the fact is, that the coyote in my opinion, observations, and regardless of their numbers, have little effect on the other game populations. I might add, that there are several large sheep operations in my area also, and I've not heard any anti-coyote talk out of them. I trap fox and coyote every year in my area, so I would hear from them if they did have coyote problems.

RanchMan · Aug 4, 2002

cp1969-

Ahhh - where to start.....

Ok, I guess I'll start with your "proof"....

In fact, many times I have seen coyotes walk through a pasture filled with cows and calves and they won't even stop grazing, let alone make an attempt to get away from what is supposedly their predator.
...
And you expect me to disregard that body of evidence and accept on someone's internet say-so that coyotes' behavior as an entire group is to routinely prey on livestock?

per my earlier posts:
Do I think every coyote is a "bloodthirsty killer" - uh, no. I believe that their actions are based on a lot of factors, the biggest of which is ease of obtaining food. I suspect, like most animals, coyotes are lazy and want the easiest & "most hearty" meal available. Newborn, sick, weak, or "trapped" livestock seem to be pretty easy targets to me.

Maybe if you would carefully read my comments the first time around, you wouldn't have a knee-jerk reaction and try and twist what I said. Seems that my belief in coyotes going after "easy targets" would fit nicely with your "real world" experience, assuming there are easier things for them to hunt in "your neck of the woods."

When you say "just because you didn't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't happen" is exactly that--it is asking me to take someone else's word that an event occurred.
...
Not once did I find a person who claimed he'd actually seen it, except from persons who were in my opinion blowhards or known liars.

per my earlier posts:
if someone refuses to believe...they must state that every “eyewitness” on this thread who saw such an attack is either (a) unable to distinguish the difference between a coyote & other animals (such as a dog) OR (b) they are a liar.

Seems pretty plain to me that you are calling all those who have posted that they've "seen it with their own eyes" outright liars (or idiots). Sorry you hold such a low opinion of those individuals. Per one of my earlier posts, I'll simply say that I do not concur with your assessment of their truthfulness.

I'm willing to believe that coyote behavior could very well be different where you live, but don't try to tell me that's how they are around here, because they aren't.

Never said it did indeed happen in your location - all I said was that you can't PROVE it didn't. I've seen plenty of known criminals NOT conduct crimes when I was around them, but that doesn't mean they were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. Big difference. "That could NEVER happen in MY neighborhood." -- Ahhh, where have I heard these words before??? /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

as a juror I would probably have to put my personal experience aside and vote with the preponderance of witness testimony

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif So, you are basically telling me you simply can't/won't believe one of your "local" coyotes could/would attack livestock/deer unless you see it with your own eyes. Wouldn't matter if one of your local honest "Joe Citizens" told you what he saw, dissected the coyote & had its stomach contents, had a photo of the attack, and your local biologist said "It's possible." Nope, not good enough for you - after all, you have YEARS of experience NOT seeing anything. I understand...

But I would probably be more comfortable as a witness for the defense.

That doesn't surprise me. After all, it appears you are more interested in the "feeling" aspect than the "facts" presented. After all, the only "fact" I've seen anyone dispute is the eyewitness testimony (Nothing about the photo being faked, the stomach contents being falsified, the biologist info being incorrect, etc.) Yep, you'd make the type of juror a defense attorney loves - forget the facts, it's all about feeling...

Everyone needs to try not to get so steamed up over this. 

I understand your point, why would ANYONE get upset??? /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

Let's see, basically between you and Trescrows, the comments/actions have been:
(a) everyone who has witnessed such activity and posted it here is a LIAR,
(b) to dismiss any evidence provided (including photos),
(c) come across as incredibly arrogant and holier-than-thou since you fellas OBVIOUSLY know more about running a farm/ranch than those who do it for their livelihood
(d) attacked the integrity of the farming/ranching profession and stated those folks wreck the environment
(e) employed double standards (Trescrows & deer)
(f) stereotyped EVERYONE who believes that a coyote is capable of attacking deer/livestock and therefore chooses to remove them as some uneducated red-neck looking for an excuse to blow something away. (/w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif gosh! that sounds a lot like the argument those "Aggies do not lie, cheat, or steal, nor do they tolerate those who do." Call me what you like, but I was raised with those values and actually believe in them. To date I have not seen any evidence/motive to convince me that those who have posted their "eyewitness accounts" of coyote attacks on livestock are being dishonest. Refusal to acknowledge even the remote possibility that such an attack ***could*** occur (regardless of location) strikes me as, if not outright, at least intellectual dishonesty. (I guess, in your book at least, a pit-bull is no more predisposed to have agressive tendencies than, say a Brittany Spaniel.)

Interesting thing about it is that my first post in this thread was simply informational - links to some Parks & Wildlife info and some statistics on stomach contents, along with the comment that I had tons of coyotes on my place. I didn't jump in until YOU GUYS started attacking the integrity of the eyewitnesses - technically this isn't even my fight - I only spoke up because I hate to see those I believe as "good folks" attacked viciously and without any consideration for logical discussion.

'Course as Cowboydoc already said, this is probably a futile discussion. After all, you have the "right" to believe whatever you want - nobody can make you acknowledge anything and facts, well, you have the option to ignore them if you want to for whatever reason you make up. Nope, don't see a lot of intellectually sound "discussion" in the past few posts (all the real info has only been coming from one side.)

Pilgrim · Aug 4, 2002

I have had a close encounter of the “I’m a dead man” kind with coyotes.
Four years ago I took a solo walk across the street from my home. It’s about 10k acres owed by the Water Commission (MDC). All posted. No hunting, fishing, hiking. The locals call it “Heaven”, and it is for anything with wings, gills or 4 legs.
Now the property owners who are adjacent to it HAVE been known to wander in there every once in a while (fishing pole in hand). Which I did.
It was an overcast day and I went in without a compass (stupid), cell phone (don’t own one) or sidearm (don’t get caught with a fishin pole in there let alone a gun, $$$).
What was I talking about? Oh yea, the coyotes.
I was about a half mile in, bushwhacking through a large stand of mountain laurel. Visibility was next to nothing. That’s when I dumbed across him. He was about 10 feet in front of me. We did the obligatory “holy [censored], where did YOU come from” for about 5 seconds. At that point I’m wondering why isn’t he running? That’s when I started thinking, “why aren’t I running”. So I pulled a 180 and got my cigarette scared lungs pumping the legs.
Shot a straight line through the laurel I had just been weaving through. Now as I’m running I can hear him off to my right. He’s keeping up with me. I’m getting a look at him about 15 feet to starboard. Then I herd his buddy and got a look at him 15 feet to the port side. They weren’t even working to keep up with me. I’m thinking they’re the bread and this Irishman is the corned beef.
When I came out of the laurel I picked up a stick mid stride and saw the swamp ahead. I’m gonna take the shortest distance between two points and hit the swamp runnin. The adrenaline is pumping good and the hackles are up but my work boots filled with water and mud and it was like someone put the Jake break on. I turned to take them on, stick held over my head. I scanned the edge of the swamp but couldn’t see them. I got my breath and tried to orient myself. It was overcast so I couldn’t get a bearing from the sun. I heard a jet overhead and took my bearing from the approach path to the airport to get out of there.
I can only figure I stumbled across their den. They chased me out so far and went back to tend to their pups.
I’ve seen them piss on my mail box post , piss on my truck tire, piss in my propane tank and even piss on my house, but that is the only time I thought they were gonna piss on me.
So there you go. It was a close encounter of the weird kind.