Where to Put Rear Hydraulics Levers

[MChalkley]

Yes, what you've read is true: high pressure leaks can force the oil into your skin and this can result in a very nasty infection. In my case, the leak just got enough hot oil on me to burn the skin, but it wasn't spraying out with enough force to penetrate. Thankfully! It'll sure get your attention, though...

MarkC

 

[glennmac]

I agree with the Kiwi Kid and Mark. My first reaction when seeing the valves and hoses on the fender was that it seemed bulky, unaesthetic and possibly dangerous.

What hit me right away was the risk when brush hogging or trailblazing through the woods. I have had tree branches and brush move all the levers on my fenders and my fel joystick, rip the plastic knobs off the ends of my fender levers, and rip the loader and toplink pins out of my tractor. The fender mounted valve handles would be even more exposed to these risks, and I immediatly visualized those hoses, 6 inches from my arm, being ripped or punctured by snagging and whipping branches and brush.

Because brush cutting and woods-wandering is what I do frequently, I am not willing to take this kind of risk. I'll take risks where the penalty is to the tractor. I'll take risks where I feel I am in good operational control, like driving on steep hills I am familiar with. I'll take risks where the penalty is only time or money, like getting buried in mud or snow. But I won't take risks where I dont have good control--as Gordon says, in the woods things just jump out at you--and where the penalty is personal injury.

For me, I think the only way I would add t&t cylinders on my 2910 is with the electro-switch valves. (Again, all this is not an issue for those tractors that have available valve handle slots.) If all I have on my fender is rocker switches, and all the hoses and hardsware can be stuffed under or behind the tractor, I'll do it. Safe and clean and neat.

Another electro-switch approach I like is the one scotd1 used, having the t&t controlled by the fel joystick when a binary switch is thrown. I dont imagine I would need to be using my fel at the same time I am adjusting top or tilt. On a JD or Ford, which have joysticks right next to your right leg, this would be quite consistent with looking over your right shoulder at your 3ph when adjusting t&t. Even on the Kubota, which has a long joystick, it seems I can turn and look while adjusting the fel joystick. You probably could even put an extension on the joystick for this purpose.

I will be investigating the V&M electro-switches.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by glennmac on 07/29/01 09:50 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Rowski]

Here a picture of a V&M valve. This is for 2 cylinders, cylinder A (top), cylinder B (tilt). On the left side of the valve it says to tractor remotes. This could also be your loader joystick or you could plumb it from your power beyond port with a return line. If you were to mount it on the joystick you would only need to hook it up to one funtion dump/curl or up/down. I think the dump/curl option would be better. While you would be using the dump/curl for your top & tilt you could still move your loader up and down.

The valve I was looking at is a three outlet (attachment is a two outlet) measures approx. 8" wide, 6" tall, 4" thin. Your two outlet valve will be not as wide but the still 6" tall and 4" thin. V&M will put in an orifice to control the speed of the cylinders. I would look into that. My three outlet valve was quoted at $550. I would call them 1-605-332-4335 and ask for Mark. Explain your problem, he will give you suggestions, really nice guy to take to. Mention TBN to him.

I could not post the spec sheet, file to large. I made the file smaller and you couln't read it. I could e-mail it to you.


Derek

 

[glennmac]

Derek, thanks. Yes, please email it to me.

 

[hayden]

Glenn,

I've been struggling over this too for my 2910. It's compounded by the fact that I've got what seems to be a much larger control valve assembly than at least birds, which seems to be about half the size of mine.

Right now I'm leaning towards mounting it with the valve assemble standing upright positioned between the seat and ROPS bar on the right side of the tractor. It will involve moving the flasher light tothe outboard side of the ROPS, but there's a bracket to do that. The control levers attach to the top of the valve assemble and will point forward. Moving them up/down will control cyl movement. The 4 outlets from the valve assembly face the rear of the tractor, which is like because I can attach disconnects directly to the valve body and plug/unplug hoses right at the rear of the tractor where I want them. Before I was having trouble finding a clean way to mount the valve assemble, mount a set of 4 disconnects, and route hoses between them. The issue of physical protection of the hoses and levers is not one I had considered but I think this placement will help somewhat with that problem.

When I first started planning this I also considered the remote electric valves and the selector switch approach that allows the loader control to double as a TnT control. You've got me reconsidering these now, but let me recount the reasons why I passed on them earlier. Maybe it will help me figure out if I'm still doing the right thing.

The electrical controlled valves are clearly very attractive because you can separate the bulky valve from the control. I passed on them for two reasons. If I've misinterpreted how they work hopefully someone who's used them or researched them more thououghly can correct me, but it looked to me like they were binary on/off controls. A manual valve has a range of operating positions and at least on my loader I use that extensively for fine adjustmements and positioning, and it seemed to me that fine adjustment was probably even more important on the TnT. I did see Ron mention that flow restrictors are available so the valves don't produce a gusher when activated, but I still think the variable control will be important. Maybe some TnT users can comment on how important this really is.

The second reason I passed was cost. It's been hard justifying the cost of a TnT and the electric valves are 2x the cost of a manual valve.

The other approach that I was originally leaning towards was a set of selector valves that would channel the loader valve ports either to the loader or to my rear couplers & TnT. When the selector is in one position the control operates the loader as we all know and love, and in the other position the control would operate the TnT. This was very attractive to me because it eliminated a valve for which I couldn't find a mounting position (right back to the original problem), I could place the selector valves somewhere on the loader frame where there's room, not have to tap into the rear hydraulic port of the tractor, etc.

But then I ran into trouble finding the right selector valve. Northern Nydraulics has one but it would only control one of the two circuits for the loader so I woudl need two. Then there would have been two selector levers, not one, so some of the simplicity was wearing thin. I looked at the electric controls, ignoring cost for a second, and they are not selectors, they are control valves so I'd need two of them.

I then realized that I could get most of the same benefits by mounting a second control valve just below the loader joy stick, still tap into the loader hydraulic supply, and be able to operate the TnT and loader independently. This seemed great and was the "final" plan, until I posted it here and everyone said I was making a mistake placing the TnT control up by the loader control and that it really needed to be somewhere around the fender. After a few "make-believe" sessions of my tractor trying to imagine how Box scraping and snow blowing would work, I saw the wisdom in the advise I was given.

I'd be real interested to hear from people using the electric controlled valves to understand how precisely then can be controlled. By guess is that you need to pulse the switch to make fine adjustments to the TnT position. Does this work OK or is it a nusance.

 

[glennmac]

Peter, thanks for thinking out loud. My impression from reading the V&M site descriptions was that you could control flow and make fine adjustments with the rocker switches. Derek and scotd1 said that Mark at V&M is very helpful and easy to talk to. I have not called because I feel absolutely inadequate to even ask the right questions. If someone with your background were willing to invest time in such a call, maybe you could fully understand the V&M valves vs. manual valves, and then be able to explain it to the rest of us. If you are "wrong" about the way they work, maybe they will re-emerge as the preferred solution. Derek seems to think so.

 

[hayden]

I might be able to, but can't promise. Things are kind of crazy right now.

 

[gordon]

Glenn, the V&M is just a valve block that is electrically controlled. Mark C has the same setup on his tractor only the solenoid valves are separate and not in the same block. Are you with me so far?

Lets say you've got the switch in the off position, then flow is going to the hydraulic top link. Push down on your lock switch and push in button. This changes flow from the top link to the side link. In doing so it locks the toplink at that adjustment and then allows adjustment of the side link. Are you with me so far?

Now you push off the lock button and go to position two. This puts flow to the lets say rear blade angle cyl.. Works same as above.

With anystyle valve you can only do one cyl at a time. Unlike the loader control that allows you to do two at a time.

You must have at least one remote to start with to use this valve body. You could use the loader valve but, then the flow restrictors would really come into play to keep from having the jerky responses.

I just wanted to say I'm really thinking hard about getting the V&M valve body. Advantage all your stuff in a small package. Not a bunch of stuff hanging off the tractor, or a bunch of hoses running every which way. The down side if the switch or one of the solenoids goes bad. Usually only the coil all you have to do is drop another one in. Unless the valve itself is leaking by. So my only concern is the weather.

Think of it as your gear shift in your car. you can only be in one gear at a time but you have the option of three or four gears. OK?/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Tried to keep it simple as possible
Gordon

 

[glennmac]

Gordon, let's forget the set-up where we use the loader joystick. I understand you can operate only one cylinder at a time. Maybe my understanding of the terminology is fuzzy. I'm thinking of the valve as the "enlargeable/contractable" opening that controls the flow into the cylinder to make the piston move out or in. I'm thinking of the big handle as part of the valve--or the valve assembly--ie, the thing that opens and closes the valve to control the flow into the cylinder.

As to the V&M product, using my perhaps incorrect terminology, I thought you could electrically do two things. First, that you could choose which cylinder to operate (as you describe). Second, that you also could control the flow into the cylinder with an electrically operated rocker switch. In other words, there is no big handle opening the valve manually. Some sort of electric motor apparatus opens and closes the valve in response to the length of time you hold down the rocker switch.

Do I have this right? Partly right? Demoted to Kindergarden?

 

[gordon]

Your ready for high school. Yes your correct on the s/v directional it can be ran "hot" from the pump. Now all you have to figure out is where your going to get your supply and return from. Also be aware of your pump output if you have to much flow going through the valve it can overheat it. Something you have to consider when running the valve with a constant supply of fluid.

So it looks to me like your ready for your final exam Glenn./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Gordon

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I was looking at your posting. If any of you want to call me use 1-800-648-6507. We are out of Sioux Falls,SD. I will be glad to send out information or answer your questions. These valves will work on any tractor(with an existing hydraulic system). We are on central time,8am to 5pm. We have been manufacturing electro-hydraulic valves since 1989. There are some pictures of our valves and mounted control handles on our web site. It is vandminc.com. You can also e-mail me at hydinfo@vandminc.com

 

[Leef]

Hayden,

I'm exactly where you are in this T&T planning. I've read several of the longest threads and have it sort of figured out using conventional valving, but Rowski's idea really seems to make sense for the reasons you just stated, but also b/c of safety. I'd like my wife and children to be able to use this tractor for simple tasks and the idea of scalding hot hoses near our arms worries me. I also plan to work in the woods a fair amount which could cause catching on tree limbs.

So I'm following this V&M idea closely with one other "twist": Further into the future, I plan to buy a Curtis blade for my FEL arms. I have a FEL quick attach, so I'd remove the bucket and hook up to the blade. This will also require some hydraulic attachments for left/right angling of the blade. I've followed Ron Hall's diagrams ( see "let it snow" and Bird's T&T" threads ) to accomplish all of this, but now the idea of electrical solenoids sends me back to the drawing board. Any advice from MChalkey or RonHall or Rowski will be extremely appreciated.

Leef

 

[Bird]

I like the cylinders, valve, and valve levers better on LarryT's set up than my own, although I would prefer using the optional rear hydraulic outlet (as I did) instead of the power beyond port off the loader vavle (as LarryT's dealer did).

Bird

 

[Leef]

Hayden,

I still think the electric solenoids will give fine tuning ability. They're just selectors aren't they? Throw the switch and now your FEL joystick will operate the T&T with the same fine adjustments that your loader has. You just can't operate both at the same time. I'm probably missing something, but that's how I see it working in the end. Your ideas are most in line with my own. What do you think?

Leef

 

[Leef]

Bird,

I agree with you. I would prefer to use the rear aux. hydraulic block also. What about LarryT's arrangement do you like better then? I read the entire thread from December, but can't look at the pictures b/c they're too old.

Now however I'm considering using the electric solenoid idea to keep hoses and bulky spool valves away from the seat. Isn't that funny, just when I get it figured out along comes a different mousetrap.

The other twist is my future hopes for a Curtis blade. I can't afford everything now, but I would like to plan and be prepared.

Thanks for your help and willingness to share.

Leef

 

[Bird]

Leef, I'm sure mine "works" as well as LarryT's, but I had to shorten the top link cylinder, then had to make a "bracket?" to lengthen the side link cylinder and get the angle right, and the levers on my valve are more open and stick out to the right a bit - not really a problem on my property, but could get caught on limbs in brush. In other words, I think he just has a neater, cleaner set up.

Bird

 

[hayden]

OK, maybe I've made it to first grade now with these explainations, which suggest it works differently that I thought.

I understand the selector switch picks which cylinder to control. The part I'm not totally clear on is whether when you go to actuate the selected cylinder, it's a binary full-on or full-off switch, or if it's a graduated control that lets to press lightly and move the cylinder slowly, or press harder and move the cylinder faster, just like the gradations you have with the loader or other manual valve control.

This approach is sounding more and more interesting, except I've got this $200 manual valve in my garage.

 

[glennmac]

This is a quote from the V&M site:

<font color=blue>A control box with rocker switches controls the SV Directional. This will allow the operator to move the switch forward to extend the cylinder or move the switch backward to retract. These switches are available in momentary and held styles. The switches are water and dust proof. They are rated at 100,000 cycles-minimum-for long life in or out of the cab.</font color=blue>

Since Mark of V&M is monitoring this thread and has offered to help, I hope one of us with some hydraulics background could take the time to talk to him to figure out a design for us.

As to operating angle on a Curtis blade, I thought you could do that with the 4 position loader valve on a Kubota. No additional valves necessary.

 

[hayden]

Glenn,

I read through the V&M site several times and I'm interpreting the SV-directional the same way you are. It does sound like it will work. The other SV valve is what they call a multiplier, and it only works to fan-out an existing control valve to operate more than one cylinder. They key is that you still need to have at least one valve to control oil flow. The multiplier lets you direct that flow to the cylinder of your choice.

We are both (I think) trying to control the TnT without using the loader valve, so the electric V&M gadget must act as a valve by itself. I think that's what the SV directional is.

I'll try to call Mark tomorrow to confirm. I'm liking this more and more.

Peter

 

[glennmac]

Peter, if I were to spend the money on this, I suppose I ideally would like three rear outlets (top, tilt, extra) controlled by something other than the loader joystick.

The way this thread has developed, it has now piqued my interest as to whether I can get that all installed on a 2910 with only the switch panel being mounted and visible on the right fender.

Of course, you can get a factory installed 3 spool set-up on that 3710 you are apparently dreaming about. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif