Which Backhoe?

[coopers]

no Case SM.

Just out of curiosity, why not?

Blake
WA

 

[wh22366]

I picked up a relatively straight '87 Cat 416 4wd last year for $14.5K and have been very happy with the machine. It has 6000+ hours but a new engine. Someone screwed up the engine wiring harness and it had to be jump started every time. Fixed that, rebuilt the stabilizer cylinders, replaced a couple of hoses and was off to the races. I've seen more and more of this vintage Cat available for reasonable prices and its a solid machine.

 

[jfh0jfh]

Just out of curiosity, why not?

Blake
WA

Too new, too complicated, too sophisticated, .... and Italian parts and design. I ran one the other day. Great machine. As was the new New Holland I ran last week.

But I do my own maintenance and favor simplicity. K/L Case, D/E Deere, D Ford are about as new as I want to get.

 

[Builder]

Too new, too complicated, too sophisticated, .... and Italian parts and design. I ran one the other day. Great machine. As was the new New Holland I ran last week.

But I do my own maintenance and favor simplicity. K/L Case, D/E Deere, D Ford are about as new as I want to get.

I don't see anymore "italian parts or design" on mine than any other brand. The only difference between a SuperL from the late 90's and a SuperM is the updated cab design which almost eliminates the cab rust associated with the L. The inside of the cab is a lot nicer & more roomy. Rest of the machine below the cab is essentially the same. Lots of backhoes have Carraro axles underneath. The CAT's have ZF (german) axles. My early 90's Ford 555E was made in Belgium, had a foreign diesel in it, too.

My Case is an '05 and was made in USA with no more foreign parts than any other machine.

 

[jfh0jfh]

I don't see anymore "italian parts or design" on mine than any other brand. The only difference between a SuperL from the late 90's and a SuperM is the updated cab design which almost eliminates the cab rust associated with the L. The inside of the cab is a lot nicer & more roomy. Rest of the machine below the cab is essentially the same. Lots of backhoes have Carraro axles underneath. The CAT's have ZF (german) axles. My early 90's Ford 555E was made in Belgium, had a foreign diesel in it, too.

My Case is an '05 and was made in USA with no more foreign parts than any other machine.

Case-New Holland-Kobelco construction is one entity. NH units have "made in Italy" tags riveted on. Fiat has announced that it will "leverage existing and new design & technology and look for synergies in the manufacture of all related construction equipment". In the same way that Fiat & Lancia & Alfa used the same parts. Ditto all GM cars.

Case backhoes since the early 2000s have an Italian transaxle and some other Italian components.

This isn't about a US company sourcing overseas. It's about a European company replacing components with European-built parts built for other units. It's not about ZF axles in Cats; or Yanmar parts in JD; or Perkins engines in JCB; or Holden parts in the new Cadillac.

But let's be clear: I'm not here ragging on Italian machinery. And/ or arguing that something else is "better". I'm just saying that I would like to avoid Itialian parts if posible.

 

[Builder]

I realize that FIAT now owns CASE. I, too avoided New Holland b/c all the machines I looked at were Italian made. Many CAT backhoes are made in England. TEREX is also made in England. I narrowed it down to CASE or DEERE since they were basically the only hoes left built here in the US.

In hindsight, I think I should have bought a DEERE, but I couldn't find one with the features I wanted and an acceptable price. I really wanted a 310SG.

This happens a lot with equipment I buy. I know what I want, but sometimes you have limited time to get a unit on the jobsite and you have to settle for something less than your #1 choice.

Other than a substandard paint job, my CASE has been just fine.

 

[jfh0jfh]

I realize that FIAT now owns CASE. I, too avoided New Holland b/c all the machines I looked at were Italian made. Many CAT backhoes are made in England. TEREX is also made in England. I narrowed it down to CASE or DEERE since they were basically the only hoes left built here in the US.

In hindsight, I think I should have bought a DEERE, but I couldn't find one with the features I wanted and an acceptable price. I really wanted a 310SG.

This happens a lot with equipment I buy. I know what I want, but sometimes you have limited time to get a unit on the jobsite and you have to settle for something less than your #1 choice.

Other than a substandard paint job, my CASE has been just fine.

Same here - you look and look and finally have to settle for something you don't quite want. There's only so much time. I've been looking since May with no real luck. I'm not a contractor - this is farm use - so no real pressure; and I have a small one with which I get by.

Yes, Terex in the UK; JCB in GA now; NH in Italy; JD in the US or Japan (the 110),

I'm leanng towards a 310E I found but I prefer a 410 (D/ E) but that right machine at a good price just hasn't materialized. And there's a JCB I like but I need to run it again.

 

[Builder]

Be VERY careful when buying JCB.

If some Italian parts scare you in the newer machines, you should see how unpredictable English made stuff can be.

Used JCB's sell for real cheap for a reason. I could have easily gotten a 2-3yr old 1,000 hr JCB with all the features of my CASE for $10,000-$15,000 less. There's a reason for that.

 

[rutwad]

I just read through this thread. JD does not use Yanmar anymore for the 110.
Terex-I heard was owned, built, related to, or something with CAT. I'm not sure about that. But the terex does come with a 3 year warranty. I heard (yep, again) that several people that have demo'd Terex's were really impressed with them. I have personally never even seen one. If there is not a high market for the Terex, then you may be able to find a great deal on a used one.

 

[Builder]

I just read through this thread. JD does not use Yanmar anymore for the 110.
Terex-I heard was owned, built, related to, or something with CAT. I'm not sure about that. But the terex does come with a 3 year warranty. I heard (yep, again) that several people that have demo'd Terex's were really impressed with them. I have personally never even seen one. If there is not a high market for the Terex, then you may be able to find a great deal on a used one.

I did and was pretty impressed, too. Yes-3 yr warranty and an awesome financing deal. I probably woulda bought a 760, but I didn't have 60K and the machine had an enormous dipperstick that was a mile high in the air. My CASE is so much more compact. The TEREX also depreciates much faster.

 

[D7E]

I can see why JCB could be harder to get parts for than others ,But that is changing ,We have some british models With straight legs and side-shift hoes and still find parts ok. My self and drivers think JCB is best built machine and my accountant likes them too?..75% market share of backhoes and telehandlers worldwide (apparantley) ?Interesting about the terex's being made in uk ,The centre boom loaders were originally "MATBRO'S" from gloucestershire uk ?

 

[Tigerotor77W]

Interesting about the terex's being made in uk ,The centre boom loaders were originally "MATBRO'S" from gloucestershire uk ?

Terex bought out Fermec backhoes.

 

[Tags]

I just read through this thread. JD does not use Yanmar anymore for the 110.
Terex-I heard was owned, built, related to, or something with CAT. I'm not sure about that. But the terex does come with a 3 year warranty. I heard (yep, again) that several people that have demo'd Terex's were really impressed with them. I have personally never even seen one. If there is not a high market for the Terex, then you may be able to find a great deal on a used one.

You may be right, but I'm pretty sure the 110 still has the Yanmar engine and that backhoe on the Yanmar CBL40 is almost identical to the 110 aside from the stabilizer cylenders being reversed and the linkage to swap the controlls. The bottom line with the equipment is this, it may be a Cat but most are still Mitsubishi's, the Deere excavators are pretty much re-badged Hitachi's with some models having Deere engines but not all, Fermek backhoes were also Kobelco backhoes and not very popular, New Holland excavators are Kobelco machines just repainted. I don't see anything wrong with this besides the fact it makes it a little confusing to someone trying to purchase or educate themselves about the whats what and whos who of the equipment world. Components seem to be the name of the game with the backhoes though, whoever has the best "deal" on axels, pumps, cylenders, etc. gets the job at the time. All in all though most of todays equipment is pretty tough considering what we have all come to expect from it, in the end its all about price and function.

 

[jfh0jfh]

I'm still looking at backhoes - still waiting for the right machine and price. Some comments as I continue to run them:

• I've come closest to purchasing a JD 310E, a 310G and a 410D. The 410D is probably the ideal machine. The Es and Gs are tempting but the electronics scare me.
• Case 5nnK (or an E) is another possibility but the decent ones seem overpriced.
• Ford 675D is another nice machine but hard to find.
• A gent I know with a rental store has JD 110s and hates them - constant repairs. He has much better luck with Allmand in the smaller machines and will go back to JD 310 as soon as he can unload the 110s.
• Another rental store I know has Terexes. Also a high repair rate and electronics are challenging to keep working.
• I've watched NH & Terex sell at the Ritchie auctions. They bring nothing - NH is nearly $20K below Case; Terex even worse.
• JCB still a possibility but I haven't found any decent ones. Sunbelt Rental sells theirs but it's hard to deal with the stores eg. you drive 3 hours for an appointment to find that they rented it the day before and forgot to call you. Vs United Rentals, where the folks have been 100% crisp and professional

Of the 20+ machines I've run in the past several months, JD seems to suit me best - but that may be because I've owned more of them and know them better. A Ford 675D or Case K/ E would work too. Or a JCB if the price was right. But not a Terex or NH.

Thing is, there are a lot of machines for sale and so prices are good. If I can buy a JD (or a Case) for the same money, why would I look at aything else? Regardless of how good the others are, the resale just isn't there.

 

[Builder]

I'm still looking at backhoes - still waiting for the right machine and price. Some comments as I continue to run them:

• I've come closest to purchasing a JD 310E, a 310G and a 410D. The 410D is probably the ideal machine. The Es and Gs are tempting but the electronics scare me.
• Case 5nnK (or an E) is another possibility but the decent ones seem overpriced.
• Ford 675D is another nice machine but hard to find.
• A gent I know with a rental store has JD 110s and hates them - constant repairs. He has much better luck with Allmand in the smaller machines and will go back to JD 310 as soon as he can unload the 110s.
• Another rental store I know has Terexes. Also a high repair rate and electronics are challenging to keep working.
• I've watched NH & Terex sell at the Ritchie auctions. They bring nothing - NH is nearly $20K below Case; Terex even worse.
• JCB still a possibility but I haven't found any decent ones. Sunbelt Rental sells theirs but it's hard to deal with the stores eg. you drive 3 hours for an appointment to find that they rented it the day before and forgot to call you. Vs United Rentals, where the folks have been 100% crisp and professional

Of the 20+ machines I've run in the past several months, JD seems to suit me best - but that may be because I've owned more of them and know them better. A Ford 675D or Case K/ E would work too. Or a JCB if the price was right. But not a Terex or NH.

Thing is, there are a lot of machines for sale and so prices are good. If I can buy a JD (or a Case) for the same money, why would I look at aything else? Regardless of how good the others are, the resale just isn't there.

It's kind of funny. I have been following your purchase adventure and although your needs are a little different than mine, you have arrived at the same place I did last year. In my biased mind, the only machines worth considering are Deere, CASE or CAT. This is because they're proven machines with extensive dealer networks used by major companies all over the USA.

IMO, Deere is the nicest. They have a quality feel to them I can't really describe. I really wanted a 310 SG 4x4.
The CAT is the most "industrial" machine. Strong and BIG. Looked impossible to damage.
The CASE won me over in the end because it's the best machine for a Builder/ General contractor like me. It's the smallest in stature, yet has just as much power as any of the others. It fits in tighter spaces and weighs 1-2K lbs less. The FEL lifts anything I can put into it and the backhoe digs as deep as I need.

I think the fact that this one I bought had pilot controls on the backhoe and an affordable price won me over in the end.

What will probably happen for you is you'll come down to picking the machine that has the least compromises for your situation. It's tough to find the "perfect" machine unless you've got a lot of time to wait. I didn't.

I bet if I hadn't found this CASE 580 Super M, I'd be in a Deere 310 SG.

 

[jfh0jfh]

It's kind of funny. I have been following your purchase adventure and although your needs are a little different than mine, you have arrived at the same place I did last year. In my biased mind, the only machines worth considering are Deere, CASE or CAT. This is because they're proven machines with extensive dealer networks used by major companies all over the USA.

IMO, Deere is the nicest. They have a quality feel to them I can't really describe. I really wanted a 310 SG 4x4.
The CAT is the most "industrial" machine. Strong and BIG. Looked impossible to damage.
The CASE won me over in the end because it's the best machine for a Builder/ General contractor like me. It's the smallest in stature, yet has just as much power as any of the others. It fits in tighter spaces and weighs 1-2K lbs less. The FEL lifts anything I can put into it and the backhoe digs as deep as I need.

I think the fact that this one I bought had pilot controls on the backhoe and an affordable price won me over in the end.

What will probably happen for you is you'll come down to picking the machine that has the least compromises for your situation. It's tough to find the "perfect" machine unless you've got a lot of time to wait. I didn't.

I bet if I hadn't found this CASE 580 Super M, I'd be in a Deere 310 SG.

I'm not looking at Cat at all. Too many folks have said that they've overpriced and I have to agree. I had a dealer talk me into giving one a try "You be amazed how competitive we are." But they're not even close. JD's as good a machine and is $5K+ less.

Right now my prefs (in order) are Deere, Ford 675D, Case, JCB. No Terex, NH, Kobelco, Komatsu. No Cat; no JD 110. I don't necessarily think the Ford is better than the Case. I just can't find a Case I like. And I do like the Ford Ds, especially the 675.

Weight isn't an issue for me (except for resale). I even ran a JD 710. I've found some decent JD 310 Es & Gs. I would have bought one but I'm holding out for an ex-hoe. The best machine I've found is a JD 410 heavy lift. I'll probaby get that one if I don't find somethng else in a few weeks.

I still prefer the 410. It's just that little bit heavier and so has less appeal to the small contractor market. Some of the 310s I've seen have been just worn out - even with god hours.

Yes, time is on my side. A few years ago I needed one and so looked for barely a week before I bought a big JD. As it happened it was a great hoe - radiator and one cylinder rebuild in 10 years.

Thanks for your comments and have a good Thanksgiving.

 

[jfh0jfh]

I can see why JCB could be harder to get parts for than others ,But that is changing ,We have some british models With straight legs and side-shift hoes and still find parts ok. My self and drivers think JCB is best built machine and my accountant likes them too?..75% market share of backhoes and telehandlers worldwide (apparantley) ?Interesting about the terex's being made in uk ,The centre boom loaders were originally "MATBRO'S" from gloucestershire uk ?

I've looked at a couple of JCBs and the are nice. And I hear the same thng from operators: that they're great to run.

But I also hear that they're not fun to repair. A big contractor wants speed, ease of use, minimum downtime. But they have professionals to do the repairs. I just use a backhoe around the farm and for a little custom work; and I do my own repairs & maintenance. That's more important to me than comfort or speed of use.

All said, I'm still looking at them and would consider bying one if the right machine came up.

HAve a great Thanksgiving.

 

[Builder]

I'm not looking at Cat at all. Too many folks have said that they've overpriced and I have to agree. I had a dealer talk me into giving one a try "You be amazed how competitive we are." But they're not even close. JD's as good a machine and is $5K+ less.

Right now my prefs (in order) are Deere, Ford 675D, Case, JCB. No Terex, NH, Kobelco, Komatsu. No Cat; no JD 110. I don't necessarily think the Ford is better than the Case. I just can't find a Case I like. And I do like the Ford Ds, especially the 675.

Weight isn't an issue for me (except for resale). I even ran a JD 710. I've found some decent JD 310 Es & Gs. I would have bought one but I'm holding out for an ex-hoe. The best machine I've found is a JD 410 heavy lift. I'll probaby get that one if I don't find somethng else in a few weeks.

I still prefer the 410. It's just that little bit heavier and so has less appeal to the small contractor market. Some of the 310s I've seen have been just worn out - even with god hours.

Yes, time is on my side. A few years ago I needed one and so looked for barely a week before I bought a big JD. As it happened it was a great hoe - radiator and one cylinder rebuild in 10 years.

Thanks for your comments and have a good Thanksgiving.

I know what you mean, CAT is ungodly expensive to buy & repair. I do think they might be a bit heavier built in some aspects, but not enough to justify the extra expense.

I'd be in a 310 SG if I could have found one with the right hours/price ratio. Both I saw were high hours, but the sellers still wanted ~$45K. Forget that.

See if you can get some demo or seat time in a Super M or Super M+ before you buy a Ford. I think you'll really like it. I know mine gets better the more I run it. My Ford was decent, but my Case blows my older Ford 575 away. The reason is b/c the Case is newer & more ergonomic and has a lot more power.


Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

 

[capt_met]

stopped by a jcb dealer today. checked out a 3cx. overall it seems to be a nice machine. i wasn't able to really put it through its paces to verify that though. i liked the ease of moving the seat to the backhoe station with the little kick latch. the pilot controls were placed nicely as well. the hydraulics didn't impress me as being the smoothest. the more functions i seemed to ask of it the more jerky it got. uncurling the bucket while bringing the hoe in i would notice the bucket moving in spurts instead of smoothly. this could have been operator error as well from not being used to the controls. i recently went through the same test with a case w/ pilots and didn't have the same problem. i liked the idea that the jcb's are built in georgia. the biggest problem for me was the machine was priced about even with a comparabe JD. with that being the case no JCB in my future. so far i am liking the case and JD. will check out Cat, Volvo abd new holland as well.
good luck in your search,

 

[Builder]

stopped by a jcb dealer today. checked out a 3cx. overall it seems to be a nice machine. i wasn't able to really put it through its paces to verify that though. i liked the ease of moving the seat to the backhoe station with the little kick latch. the pilot controls were placed nicely as well. the hydraulics didn't impress me as being the smoothest. the more functions i seemed to ask of it the more jerky it got. uncurling the bucket while bringing the hoe in i would notice the bucket moving in spurts instead of smoothly. this could have been operator error as well from not being used to the controls. i recently went through the same test with a case w/ pilots and didn't have the same problem. i liked the idea that the jcb's are built in georgia. the biggest problem for me was the machine was priced about even with a comparabe JD. with that being the case no JCB in my future. so far i am liking the case and JD. will check out Cat, Volvo abd new holland as well.
good luck in your search,

Keep in mind JCB's are pretty much assembled in Georgia out of many foreign parts as JCB is an English company. Case & Deere you'll find will have the most American made parts and will also be assembled in the USA and always have been.

The biggest problem with JCB is their rapid depreciation. Look at used backhoe prices. You can get a VERY nice JCB for 2/3-3/4 the cost of Case Deere or CAT. You need to ask yourself why that happens and realize you'll be the owner of that rapidly depreciating asset if you buy one, too.

Volvos are simply rebadged Samsung (Korean) backhoes. Volvo bought out Samsung's backhoe division a while back and continues to make them in Korea.

New Holland's are good machines, but lots of foreign parts. Last I heard, NH was Italian made under FIAT, but was building a plant in USA.

CATs are made in England. They are excellent machines, but noticeably more expensive to buy & repair.

I like Deere & Case because they're very common, American assembled from mostly American parts and have excellent reputations, parts & service networks.