Which models are the knock-offs?

Dargo · Mar 17, 2005

The loader on my 5030 was manufactured by Kubota in their plant in GA. They are mighty proud of that I might add. There is only about 4 tags and stickers saying so. I have a lot of respect for the Perkins engine and the 65 has tremendous capabilities.

Okay rti, on my Clark forklift, I'm walking on eggshells. At under 700 hours the junk Mitsubishi engine completely took a dump. No hard use, no lack of lubrication, no lack of maintenance. Unfortunately for me, I did not know that it had a Mitsubishi engine until it went bye bye. If you want, you can laugh. I'll still cry. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I did get a little assistance from Mitsu, but not what I expected. Since it is only for very limited use in my personal barn, I'm hoping that it will stay together. I do not have a warm and fuzzy feeling for Mitsubishi by any possible stretch of the imagination. For service, I had Black Equipment absolutely rip me a new one until I found a company way off in Poseyville who is reasonable. If you are asking because it has a Mitsubishi engine, yes, you got me there. From all my research, (post puking engine) the Mitsubishi automotive and forklift engines are apparently several steps down from being ranked as lemons. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Hopefully their diesel engines are not so bad. And, no, I don't own a Mitsu diesel engine.

shoppintractors · Mar 17, 2005

Good post slowzuki.

And for all we know, the Kioti loaders could be made by the same sub as the New Hollands, both are made in the US if I'm not mistaken. 

The Kioti 'curved arm' loaders are made in South Korea. Riding by on a galloping horse they do look similar to the New Holland curved arm loaders. Comparing them close up there are differences. The size of the arms are not the same, the mounting brackets on the top ends of the arms are not the same. The plumbing is different....

Don

rtimgray · Mar 17, 2005

Hey man, I don't wish mechanical misery on anybody. I promise I was not trying to open a wound or change the subject - well, I guess I was trying to change the subject, but it had been on my mind for a while.

I specifically wondered if you had dealt with Black Equipment. My plant recently bought an Advance Sweeper Scrubber from them that we have had in the plant for two weeks and it won't pick up water (this is an industrial floor scurbber, puts down water and detergent, scrubs the floor, then vacuums it up)...it does good except for that last part. The Black service guys have been in several times, and the scrubber still does not perform - it's going back next week and we are getting a different model from a different dealer.

I'm guessing the Clark lift probably has pretty limited trade value - have you checked with Black about trading it in on a Yale (that's their main brand they carry now-but you probably know that). If you are ever in the market, we get excellent service out of Prolift (they're in Evansville and Louisville and other locations) who reps Toyota (we've got 25 of their trucks) and OKI Systems formerly Niehaus Industrial in Evansville, now with locations in Evansville, Cincinnati, Louisville or Lexington - they rep Crown (electric trucks only), Komatsu (we've rented some really nice LP Komatsus) and Daewoo (which the salesmen admit is an economy brand - not for a 24/7 operation but very good for the single shift operation for the money.

I didn't know that Mitsubishi didn't make good trucks-I've been told that all of Caterpillar's industrial trucks are rebadged Mitsubishis, although I don't have any proof of that. I wish you the best of luck with it. I'm sure you take good care of it so maybe it will hold up for a few more years.

Steve_Miller · Mar 18, 2005

Can't prove anything, but if my eyes and my brain don't deceive me my old 1986 B7200 Kubota and my new 2004 CK20 Kioti have the identical engine. Everything from the brackets, valve pan covers and even the decompression lever looked identical, as a matter of fact the cubic inch displacement is even listed as identical at 56.6 in both the Kubota manual and the Kioti manual, the only exception being the Kubota was rated at 17HP and the Kioti at 21HP. I like them both. As I stated in some post months ago, anyone can buy a motor or whatever generic part off the shelf and put it on there machine (i.e...John Deere for one example). Daedong was mainly in the marine diesel industry were they not? Who's to say that twenty years ago Kubota had a contract with Daedong to supply engines for a certain line of tractors just like perkins does for various manufacturers to name one. Like someone said a few posts back, I can't tell the difference between most small cars on the road today, they all look very similar to me. That my two cents worth, thanks for your time and patience.

Steve /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Kiohio · Mar 18, 2005

Actually if we took all diesel engines(of same basic size,displacement etc) out of their respective tractors no-one except maybe the factory techs could tell the differences. The diesel engine has been around a LONG time. They are all pretty much the same. Most use the Bosch K-pump or a OH NO a knock -off. Lets just give it up....if we want to trace roots and compare this and that we'll be here arguing for a LONG time. BTW I have a picture of a visit to Korea by a big Kioti dealer, it was when I first starting to sell Kiotis....over 4 years ago....It showed a line up of the CK's 20, 25 and 30. They were prototypes. I have the picture somewhere, no-one would admit what they were, even to the point of saying the CK25/30 wasn't even a prototype yet.....6 months before it was actually released to market. If we knew all of the cross sharing of secrets we would have no loyalty to any brand. They all steal from each other and share secrets. BUT they aren't going to tell us.

KO

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

I wrote: "are also very similar in profile size and shape." 

rtimgray wrote: So now just being similar means they copy. I suppose Kioti just bought a loader, laid it down on tracing paper and then started producing. I doubt it. They probably, to your point, said - Man, NH has a good idea. Let's emulate that. 

Well, I don't know what you call a "knock-off." But let us presume that your definition of a "knock-off" is a EXACT replica down to every detail. That would breach all sorts of laws and would be illegal.

What I consider a "knock-off" is something that is substantially similar to a well known brand and emulates the look and/or functionality to attempt to garner an enhanced image and/or increased sales without infringing on trademarks or patents. That definition is pretty much in line with what the marketing professionals agree is a good definition of "knock-off." It is also a "reasonable" definition that most reasonable people can generally agree to.

ORIGINAL: Ocean Spray Cran-Apple
KNOCK OFF: Langers Apple Cranberry Cocktail. There are dozens of other examples of store brands that have attempted to emulate Ocean Spray.

ORIGINAL: Rolex President with Jubilee band
KNOCK OFF: Sieko, Bulova, etc have a watch that is, from 10' away, visually the same watch design. Mechanically different and upon close inspection different.
FORGERY: The various illegal goods that are virtual duplicates of a real Rolex and include Rolex trademarks in an attempt to pass themselves off as a real Rolex.

Now bear in mind, I have not criticized Kioti anywhere in this thread, in fact if you go back I compliment them on the CK20 and the CK30 as besting the original designs in some ways. They clearly copied the CNH loaders as models for their 120 and 130 loaders. They also clearly copied the look of the original TC21 and TC29 for the CK20 and CK30. But I never said they made them as forgeries where parts could interchange. A knock-off, which is what you asked about, does not have to be an exact copy (again that would be illegal), it simply has to be another companies version of an original product that is very similar.

As for a point brought up earlier in this thread about Shibura having a curved arm trip bucket loader years ago, it is possible they did. And as Shibura is the builder of the small CNH tractors, and as their business relationship goes back quite a while in time (at least as far back as when the company was called Ford), I would have to think that todays loaders are an evolutionary design of their own.

I think Kioho makes a valid point that they all look at each others designs. They also don't admit it. I've never levied a value judgement on if it is right or wrong, I just pointed it out. It seems pretty obvious.

slowzuki · Mar 18, 2005

Ok so I am way off on the loaders /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif I was told the l series loaders were made under contract for Kubota though.

Re teh curved loaders, most steel companies offer radius rolling for structural steel so it isn't exactly proprietry tech. Many architectural projects take advantage of this. At a previous employer they use this to make a circular chainfall track.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"ORIGINAL: Ocean Spray Cran-Apple
KNOCK OFF: Langers Apple Cranberry Cocktail. There are dozens of other examples of store brands that have attempted to emulate Ocean Spray."

It's funny you mention this one - as I have said before, the company that I work for makes the knock-offs that you speak of (not cran-apple juice but crackers). Store brand crackers is our business...but as much with tractors, there are similarities to crackers, and you may be shocked to find out that not ALL brand name crackers are made by the Brand Names (I hope you get what I'm implying here) - so sometimes it's a knock off and sometimes its a knock-off in a name brand box - but I doubt you could tell the difference (this is called co-manufacturing or co-packing).

"What I consider a "knock-off" is something that is substantially similar to a well known brand and emulates the look and/or functionality to attempt to garner an enhanced image and/or increased sales without infringing on trademarks or patents." Then that explains it: I think you have the wrong definition of knock-off. You think I have the wrong definition of knock-off, and I don't think that we will agree and it doesn't make a rat's pajamas difference to me.

"it simply has to be another companies version of an original product that is very similar." Yet it seems as though I still agree with some of your points - it's just what you consider to be a knock-off I think is just competition. I'll make a truce with you like Dargo made with me - let's agree to disagree.

Bob_Skurka · Mar 18, 2005

rtimgray, I was never arguing, I was simply laying out an explination with supporting evidence. No truce is needed with me because, at least from my perspective, I was never engaged in a brawl.

I guess at this juncture, I would like to know what you believe is a "knock-off." It sounds to me like you have a definition in mind that a "knock-off" is an exact replica of the original? That, of course, would not be competition, that would be trademark and/or patent infringement.

As for the food co-packing issues, I am very familiar with them. My company distributes thousands of different consumer items to retail stores. We carry both the name brands as well as PL merchandise.

rtimgray · Mar 18, 2005

"I guess at this juncture, I would like to know what you believe is a "knock-off." It sounds to me like you have a definition in mind that a "knock-off" is an exact replica of the original? That, of course, would not be competition, that would be trademark and/or patent infringement."

Here you go, from an earlier post in this thread, that I suppose you were too busy not arguing with me to read:

In my opinion, a "knock-off" is taking something, reverse engineering it (i.e. take it apart and copy every component), and then producing the product.

"As for the food co-packing issues, I am very familiar with them. My company distributes thousands of different consumer items to retail stores. We carry both the name brands as well as PL merchandise." But can you tell which brand names are made in brand name factories and which ones are co-packed - that's the point of that.