Which revolver/pistol?

RanchMan · Jul 19, 2002

Most people subscribe to the 'expanding bullet/energy transfer" theory.

Count me in the "most" column. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I want no part of an expanding bullet in a handgun.... personally witnessed and experienced myself many spectacular and unexplained expanding-bullet failures

/w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif Interesting... There's definitely a lot of evidence that HPs fail to expand a fair amount of the time. I don't think the same holds true for other expanding bullet types though. Regardless, based on your preference of making the largest wound channel, an expanding projectile has the benefit of enhancing that effect.

Like most things in this area, my preference could be classified as "it depends." Thick hide/heavy beast - for handguns at least, I could see where you might want something that you'd be sure "got thru." 'Course my example of "bucky" would hardly fit in to that category. I'd have to say, for the most part, based on my experiences, I fall on the other side and prefer maximum expansion (without disintegration) and "appropriate" penetration (would prefer more energy left in the target than going into the tree on the other side of it.) To each his own, I suppose.

Maximum penetration gives the maximum opportunity for this to happen. 

I understand where you're coming from, but I guess I would have a little different take. Say "Bad Beast" on all fours is coming straight at you & you have a .45 hole from chest to - uhhh - "rear end" with potentially less than 100% energy transfer. e.g. maximum penetration.

Where you'd prefer that, I'd prefer a .65 cal hole (assumes 40% expansion of .45 cal) from chest to gut and 100% energy transfer. (i.e. you prefer longer but narrower, I prefer wider but shorter).

Assuming the projectile failed to expand (e.g. the expanding projectile has now "turned in to" a solid projectile), all other things being equal (projectile mass, energy, etc.), there's a fair probability would perform in a very similar manner to the "purpose built" non-expanding projectile. The only "loose" situation I see is if "hyper expansion" or disintegration occurred before the vitals were reached. This can certainly happen, but I've yet to see it yet personally.

If the "Bad Beast" had an exceptionally thick hide or other "armor" and it required a non-expanding projectile to simply achieve penetration into the chest cavity reliably (e.g. an expanding bullet would expend all it's energy before reaching it) then, yes, I can see where you'd want that instead.

wound channel exceeds the size of the animal, the animal literally explodes.

Yes. I've seen this happen, and at less than 2000 FPS.

It's just my opinion, formed over my lifetime of shooting,

I hear ya. I'm in the same boat (I just seem to row toward a little different course, that's all. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif)

As I had said early on, whether it be Evan Marshall's statistics, the Strasbourg tests, ballistic gelatin, etc., they all have their controversies, so there's no true "definitive" answer. I have my opinions on the subject, but a lot of this area depends on beliefs/preferences as much as science.

Ozarker · Jul 19, 2002

I don't understand the basis for your opposition to expanding bullets. If you start with a .45 hollow point and it fails to expand, you get the .45 wound channel that you desire. If it does expand, you get a .70 caliber would channel.

The #1 reason for deposting all the energy of the bullet into the target instead of allowing some of the energy pass out of the target is to prevent hitting innocent bystanders. It is just as likely that your bullet could hit a person rather than a tree.

TresCrows · Jul 19, 2002

Sorry, Ozarker, I clicked on you to respond but not to you--sorry, reading here in my Ruger catalog the Ruger .480 (what I was calling their new 50 caliber) "offers approximately a third more energy than the powerful .44 Mag, able to stop big game reliably at typical handgun range." That is 1/3 more energy than a 44Mag that Dirty Harry carried. Still, I want a true a 50 caliber with twice the energy or more of a 44 Mag, then I will be happy but I don't want it to cost more than a new Mini Cooper. Yeah, it will take both hands to hold it, a repeat shot on target may be diffucult--but --not impossible--it probably will not be your favorite plinker or target shooter, it will be big and heavy but still smaller than a rifle or legal shotgun and since I am talking about a Doomsaday Weapon here, let's put some serious velocity behind that fist sized bullet, make it come smoki'n outa that barrel and meaning buisness in a bad sorta way. If the end of your world is coming straight at you like a freight train --- you better make it count. J

Bird · Jul 19, 2002

I want no part of an expanding bullet in a handgun.

And I want no part of this debate/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif, but just for your information:

When I started in law enforcement in '64, hollow point or dum dum bullets were absolutely prohibited. However, many years ago (mid-70s, I believe, but can't remember just when), our own lab did some testing with the same gel the military uses and, as a result, we went to all hollow point ammo.

Yes, you need penetration, but at least in law enforcement in the city, if you have to shoot someone, the goal is to stop that person, but you don't want a bullet to go through him and maybe hit someone else.

RoyJackson · Jul 19, 2002

"Yes, you need penetration, but at least in law enforcement in the city, if you have to shoot someone, "

Yeah, Bird...I know what you mean.
Although I've been carrying for many years, I decided long ago (based upon gun fight reports I read) that a smaller caliber is quite adequate for a civilian self defense situation. I also recall a case (in Baltimore, when I lived there) of a shopkeeper who shot at a robber...missed, and the .357 Magnum round went through the wall killing a person in the shop next door.

If you're in bear country...yep, I'd have that .44 Mag too, but in a more populated area, a smaller caliber is a better choice. If you're more then 10' or so from your assailant, you'd better run rather then shoot.

Remember, the intent is to stop an assault...that's all!

I use Triton frangibles in my .38. Won't go through a wall, but does well on soft tissue. Even then, I'd read most firearm deaths are from .22's.

TresCrows · Jul 19, 2002

"Most firearm deaths are from 22's", yes I believe that is true both due to the avaialbility and also the fact that humans are not all that diffucult to kill. Yeah, some drug frenzied 300 lbs fellow might go down slow but I think hualing around magnum weapons for killing people may be just a little macho--but I am not in the buisness of protecting the public so I will just have to believe our law enforcement professionals know what they are doing and have the publics best interest in mind even if sometimes it is apparent they do not.
Probably most 22 deaths are the result of accidental shootings. This thread began from another where a fellow tractor person was concerend about an unidentified critter being dangerous. Does anyone remember the "Devil Dogs" of the 1970 era in the Atlanta Ga area? I also remember when I lived in AZ the second time there was a wildlife agent who said--"coyotes do not attack people" --the next day a coyote attacked a child and was attempting to drag her off from her yard where yet other coyotes awaited. This is a true story--not an urban legend. Fortunately, I do not remember, but the parent or a neighbor intervened and the child recovered fully but I also remember the coyote did not flee but attempted to press the attack despite adult intervention--the "large" male coyote was killed the following day. Not all of our furry friends are all that friendly but the likelyhood of an adult male human being harmed by wildlife while driving a tractor in the 21st Century in America--in most parts of the country--is very low to nonexistent. J

cp1969 · Jul 19, 2002

I may have jumped into a conversation about shooting people when I thought we were talking about stopping animal charges. My comments weren't about stopping people, but I probably wouldn't load my gun any differently if that was the case. Although, I once read that the 110 or 125 gr .357 had the highest number of one-shot stops on people.

Ozarker asked said, "If you start with a .45 hollow point and it fails to expand, you get the .45 wound channel that you desire. If it does expand, you get a .70 caliber would channel.
" Again, I'm talking about stopping an animal here-- What you're saying sounds good, but expansion comes at a price--you trade off penetration, which I value much higher than expansion. As I said, none of my guns will drive an expanding bullet fast enough to expand it, so it doesn't matter anyway, but I want the bullet to exit on the far side. As this is a hunting situation, not an urban combat one, I know what's on the other side of the animal--nothing that a bullet will harm.

I was acting as a beater for a friend who was using his .41 Mag to hunt deer. A nice buck walked by him at about 20 yards. He had a clear, broadside shot at the buck as it walked past him. When I finally got to him, he told me the buck didn't even flinch and trotted away to the west. He went over to the spot and there was no blood, so that confirmed his suspicions that he clutched. I looked for blood and couldn't find any, either, but still started walking in the direction the deer had gone. It is surprising how well camoflaged they can be, as I almost tripped over it about 40 yards from where he shot it. I never found any blood. This is not a bullet failure story as the bullet had performed just as it was supposed to--it expanded and we found it under the skin on the far side. But at 1400fps, full expansion, and full energy delivery (no exit), it didn't produce a result any different than one shot with a 250 SWC from my .45 LC at 850fps. With regular pistol cartridges, you will have some trailing to do unless you hit the brain or spinal column, and two holes make a better blood trail, if your tracking skills, like mine, are not that of an Indian. On anything other than a broadside shot, I would rather have the Colt at 850fps than the .41 Mag at 1400 with an expanding bullet. If that expanding bullet wouldn't penetrate a whitetail broadside, then it would probably never get to the boiler room from the rear. I know the Colt will.

BTW, this guy was a convert from the .44Mag because he'd had so many failures with it. I watched him shoot a large buck at less than 25 yards with it, only to have it run about 100 yards away, stop, then slowly meander back for a second dose of .44 medicine. I guess the first wasn't enough, so it came back for more. The second shot, at about 40 yards, was also clearly a hit but produced the same result only this time the deer kept going. We trailed it for as long as we could but never caught up with it. The final straw was when a big German shepherd absorbed a cylinder full and was making good his escape. He would have made it, too, except for that 120gr .25-06 that he walked into. That was when he sold the .44 and went to a .41 (go figure). Anyway, he started reloading about that time and was using jacketed bullets. The load on the above mentioned deer was a 210gr JSP of some sort. I began yammering at him about dumping the jacketed bullets and he finally caved in a bought an LBT bullet mold, probably more to humor me than anything else. Bottom line--that was many years ago. He has used that gun with the LBT bullets (a 220gr truncated cone, with a huge flat point) to hunt just about everything except bears and to my knowledge, has yet to lose an animal with it, and this guy is an avid hunter.

What's all this prove? Nothing. He could very well have had the same success with jacketed bullets, but we'll never know. Just like the guy who's had a similar run of success using jacketed bullets, he's reluctant to change.

Ozarker · Jul 20, 2002

I don't know a lot about bullet performance in deer. I hunt with a bow. But here is a trick I learned about deer that run off after being hit. Take a break.....smoke a cigar.......drink a cup of coffee from your thermos...whatever. Just sit where you are for about 30 minutes. He will run a few yards then stop to reassess the danger. He really doesn't know what happened to him or what the real danger is. He just knows that something bit him and it hurt.

If you are pursuing him, he will connect you to what bit him and run as far and as fast as he can. If you are not pursuing him, he will hide, rest and probably bleed to death right there.

knucklehead · Jul 20, 2002

Here's an update - after a little casual looking, we popped into a local shop yesterday to take a second look at the .45's in Glock, Colt, Smith, and a Weatherby Vanguard (XGL - lightweight, short barrel) in .243 that caught my son's eye. They had just added a used Contender with a 10" 45/410 barrel to their collection. My son has wanted a Contender for a long time - and had even decided he liked the 45/410 barrel. Out the window goes the .45 ACP, the .243, and anything else that may have entered his mind. Unless someone breezed in and bought it 30 minutes before closing last night, we'll be taking a look this morning, and most likely buying. We already picked up a couple used 10" .223 and 7mm TCU barrels last year, also.

This sorta comes in the thread at the right place, as he wants to use it for deer hunting. I've been following the conversation about penetration, expansion, etc. (a cylinderful of 44's in a Shepard with no immediate effect? How many hit in the body?), and agree that there are a couple schools of thought. We call it the pumpkin rollers vs. the speed demons around here; pumpkins being the 44, 45-70, etc., and speedsters being the more modern rifle calibers. The 45 LC definitely puts us in the pumpkin category - which is where we've been for a while, anyway. Now it appears we are going to be gearing up to load the 45LC. Sounds like a lot of us have been reading similar technical info & magazines. Among the info on penetration, power, and so forth, there's always the great 45LC vs 44 mag debate. The TC gives us some wide possibilities in loading. We will be loading for target first - proabably using Unique under some 200-240gr SWC's (or whatever is a common weight for the 45). Then we will want to move up in velocity a bit to prepare for 120-180 lb Whitetails this Fall. We have Speer, Lyman, LEE, and Accurate Powder books. Anyone have any reccomendations on loads, bullets, powders? We trade (not lately) with Widener's, Natchez, Midway, and Cabela's. We have several each of Lee & RCBS die sets, all in handgun calibers. We have primarily Lee loading tools, except for a Forster powder measure (because the plastic Lee "Perfect Powder Measure" unit leaks with small sized powders, attracts huge amounts of static charge, and is generally junk). We are also interested in casting, but have no experience. How many different threads could we spin, here?

Oh, I should have mentioned - he's probably going to want to try it today - I'd pick up some medium loaded lead cartidges - like those yellow-boxed UMC products. Any favorite factory loads - target, hunting, or otherwise?

Egon · Jul 20, 2002

Casting lead bullets:

Years ago I shot a black powder revolver using .36 lead balls. I dug spent slugs out of the dirt pile at the range, used a coleman stove and cast iron frying pan set up outside to melt the lead and had a single ball cast. It's very easy but can be slow and one should probably be aware of lead fumes as a health hazard.

Egon